site banner
PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   32506 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 12, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Massachusetts Man Arrested for Knowingly Concealing the Source of Material Support or Resources to a Foreign Terrorist Organization, otherwise known as the FBI grooms yet another kid; an agent have been in contact with a guy since he was 16 until 18, LARPing as an ISIS recruiter and soliciting gift cards, Indian scammer style.

  1. What is the value of these ploys to society? This seems morally abhorrent to me and the only justification I can find is that "he would've done it if the agent was a real ISIS member," but (a) he tried to report the contact and (b) this logic doesn't work for entrapment.

  2. What is the value of these ploys to the FBI? Going off tropes, more crimes = more funding more power and more reputation. If that's the case I want more concrete and detailed pathways.

  3. Is there a way I can access the criminal complaint? I am skeptical of the "Brain Development Issues" and think the Intercept is trying to sensationalize the story which works to the latter's detriment; what the FBI did is unacceptable even if the guy was a genius.

Is there a way I can access the criminal complaint?

Courtlistener for the case is here, complaint and affidavit, though the pretrial detention motion may be helpful as well.

Obvious disclaimer: these are all allegations by the FBI. I'd hope they wouldn't outright lie, but I wouldn't put money on it, and I'd expect that they've excluded anything especially exculpatory from the complaint.

What is the value of these ploys to society?

The FBI alleges that Ventura had made at least some motions common to ISIS fanboys who escalated to violent acts, and plan to travel to join ISIS fighters:

From the complaint affidavit:

On or about August 3, 2021, during the chats exchanged between the OCE and VENTURA, VENTURA explained he had not yet pledged his allegiance to the leader of ISIS. Pledging allegiance is a common way for ISIS supporters to demonstrate their commitment to the group. This is referred to as making “baya” or “bayat”, and typically this pledge is made before any martyrdom operations or acts that are taken on behalf of ISIS so that if the supporter is killed, he supposedly obtains all the rewards from Allah, or God, when he goes to heaven.

On or about January 26, 2023, when asked about hijrah (i.e., traveling to join ISIS), VENTURA stated “I want to give my life for jihad fisabillah [for the sake of Allah] intention is pure from heart,” and also stated that he would “make good fighter for dawla.” As described above, I understand “dawla” to mean ISIS.

On or about January 26, 2023, VENTURA asked the OCE if VENTURA could perform an “ishtishadi” attack. VENTURA further informed the OCE that he wanted to fight for ISIS for a couple of months, but then became a “shashid” (i.e., a martyr) via the ishtishadi operation.

On or about April 9, 2023, The OCE asked Ventura if he would want to participate in an ISIS operation on Eid al-Fitr or go straight to the ISIS training camp. On or about April 10, 2023, VENTURA responded to the OCE "Be party of attack ...." and "Then can send to training camp ....."

In the same conversation, VENTURA told the OCE, “I plan buy ticket for tonight or tomorrow night inshaallah".

On or about April 10, 2023, VENTURA purchased a ticket for a Turkish Airlines flight from Boston with an ultimate destination of Cairo, departing at 11:10pm on April 10, 2023

And from the motion in support of pretrial detention:

The Defendant has shown an obsession with violence – he indicated a desire to commit a suicide attack, attempted to travel to join ISIS to participate in its operations, maintained a cache of over 100 horrifically violent videos, and researched homemade grenades, fertilizer bombs, and how to obtain firearms...

Third, the Defendant is a flight risk. He made at least three attempts to leave the United States and join ISIS. He obtained a passport, credit cards, and airline tickets. He inquired about traveling to Russia to join the Wagner Group of mercenaries in its fight against Ukraine and conducted internet searches about traveling to other European nations.

If this is true, it's likely that the FBI are emphasizing the financial support simply because it's the easiest to get a conviction, but it's not hard to imagine a slightly nuttier kid doing something violent as a result. Of the presented evidence, this might just be within the scope of janky sixteen-year-old 'planning', but it's at least the sort of thing that's easy to talk up how it might be the Next Terror Attack.

Though even the affidavit doesn't push that direction universally. Hussain mentioned the kid "appeared ready to turn in his purported ISIS contact", but the actual behavior was a little dumber:

On or about April 10, 2023, at approximately 10:50pm, the FBI received an electronic tip (E-tip) to the FBI’s National Threat Operations Center (NTOC) from an anonymous source stating the following:

I want 10 million dollars in duffel bags and time to get money in proper places you know who I am you already lost my trust so if you want information on attacks you must pay if you want to save lives and do you’re job this offer here is you’re final chance I want the Cash and Immunity no funny games I known you thought I am retarded fool but jokes on you I will not admit I sent this or communicate until the cash is delivered [FBI AGENT 1] I am speaking to you dumb little bimbo this is my only offer try more offensive actions and you will regret it do what I ask and I will help you simple as this Cash and immunity Cash delivered first 10 mill duffel bags front door no jokes I am not joking or playing funny games you have already lost my trust and this is you’re last chance to fix it text or email me when my demands are accepted then give some days and we can talk in person.We have 1 week or 2 until attacks I have information about happen and much more if do what I tell

On or about April 11, 2023, VENTURA called the FBI Boston Operations Center requesting to speak with someone because he wanted to help with “terror”.

On or about April 12, 2023, at approximately 2:14pm, VENTURA called the FBI Boston Operations Center requesting to speak with FBI AGENT 1 because he had information about urgent incoming terror attacks, but would not provide any further information to the Operations Center Technician.

On or about April 12, 2023, at approximately 3:03pm, VENTURA called the FBI Boston Operations Center requesting to speak with an agent again regarding upcoming terror attacks. VENTURA stated the attacks would take place overseas and would happen in the next 1- 2 weeks. He said the sooner agents call him back, the sooner they can “make the deal”.

On or about April 12, 2023, at approximately 4:43pm, FBI personnel placed a call to VENTURA. On the call, VENTURA stated he had information regarding upcoming mass attacks in Egypt planned by Daesh in Sinai. He stated the attacks were scheduled to take place around the time of Eid al-Fitr. VENTURA also stated that he had information pertaining to ISIS recruiters and individuals who facilitate travel to ISIS.

On or about April 13, 2023, at approximately 7:55am, VENTURA wrote-in an electronic tip (E-tip) to the FBI’s National Threat Operations Center (NTOC) requesting a call back by April 14, 2023. He requested 10 million dollars and immunity in exchange for information he believed would stop an ISIS attack.

This seems less like someone wanting to flip cell leadership, and more someone worried they were getting caught.

I think the FBI's framework is still bullshit. This kid probably flunks the propensity prong for entrapment as a legal matter, because most people aren't going to spend a whole bunch of time trying to find ways to join ISIS and then toy with flying to Cairo. The FBI's handler (says that they) very carefully simply prompted the kid about things he could do, rather than telling him to do them; a genuine terrorist recruiter could probably have been more direct.

But at the same time, it's difficult to understand what's better served doing a severe prosecution, rather than calling the kid's parents early on and having them pull his internet access — even assuming he would have been as easily manipulated by an actual terrorist, that’d still keep him out of their reaches. Maybe that's what would have happened if he didn't try the ETip fuckery, but we don't really have insight for that.

What is the value of these ploys to the FBI? Going off tropes, more crimes = more funding more power and more reputation. If that's the case I want more concrete and detailed pathways.

The FBI has made very overt claims that ISIS-specific stochiastic terrorism justifies or requires special powers or legislation, and it's one of the few remaining places that Red and Blue Tribe normies continue to trust the FBI. I think the focus is more specific than the general Gotta Keep Numbers Up.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats