This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Wild. Well, only half, apparently. Which raises some other questions about what she means by “other contexts.”
I think your construction is a much more realistic principle. Centering conservatives doesn’t match the way people justify progressivism. Underdog support might not be specific enough, though. It’s a popular tack across societies.
The pre-war Progressives campaigned for collective (government) action against business interests and entrenched politics. Communism attempted to harness underdogs via class consciousness. Postmodernists asked whether the narratives and structures underpinning the modern world had any rational basis, or were merely fictions. There was always an idea that the underdogs were temporarily embarrassed millionaires. More importantly, there was an excuse for any non-embarrassed millionaire to remain a good leftist, so long as he or she was awoken to the plight of the underdog.
Strategically speaking, this is very useful. It also suggests a broader progressive principle: one’s circle of concern can (and should) be very large. Race, creed, nation are not supposed to be barriers to empathy. “Workers of the world, unite.”
But that phrase retains one caveat, because no ideology survives if it cannot defend itself. A hostile ideology is the one remaining target for discrimination. For the Soviets this was nominally decided by class. Modern progressivism updates it to account for a more liberal concept of free will. The circle of concern does not have to include those who have chosen to reject it.
That caveat is what sneaks in most of the modifiers and exceptions. It’s defensible on classical-liberal grounds, which makes it very familiar for Americans and our cultural umbrella. I think this definition—a broad but selective circle of concern—best fits the modern progressive philosophy.
You're probably right. "Underdog" does a better job of covering the nominal choice for power dynamics. For making predictions about who gets the benefit of the doubt. The "circle of concern" covers a lot of the ifs/ands/buts, though it is not unique to progressivism.
More options
Context Copy link
...But then you are forced, if you are honest, to admit that you are not in fact doing anything fundamentally different than the system you've replaced. You haven't actually made a world without discrimination, only changed who gets discriminated against. All the same postmodern and materialist and nihilist critiques apply equally as well to your new system as they did to the old one, and your values are exactly as arbitrary and ultimately pointless.
And once you've admitted that, we can agree that you have nothing to offer but might makes right, foreclose the moral arguments, and get down to the mightying.
Perhaps.
Theories derived from liberalism do tend to pick up speed until they hit the ski ramp that is “coercion.”
There is a loophole. Should everyone choose progressivism, the circle gets to cover all of them. No discrimination necessary. Also, poverty and violence are ended forever, and the Age of Aquarius is upon us. We did it, Reddit.
I assume most every American thinks something similar about their ingroup, mind you. It’s the natural intersection of tribalism with our civic religion. And tribalism is really, really adaptive. The catch is that cooperating in this game has huge advantages. There is an equilibrium where progressives tear themselves apart trying to draw a very careful circle of concern. Call me an optimist, I guess.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link