This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Wow, Germany was provoked into invading Poland; because, they were not just handed Polish land on a silver platter. What an argument. Just like Russia was provoked into invading Ukraine; because, they were not just handed eastern Ukraine on a silver platter.
Yeah, I think this is the weakest link of the revisionist claims. I actually do think Hitler wasn't hellbent on "conquering Europe from the getgo" as many Western historians will claim. Plus Poland had its own antisemitic government. Putin got into hot water for pointing out that Josef Beck, Poland's foreign minister, was closely co-operating with Nazi Germany in order to jointly deport a great number of Jews. Hitler attended a special funeral in honor of Poland's strongman leader Pilsudski's when he died.
There's an interesting article focusing on Poland from the point of view of an Palestinian-American, which details a lot of these things that many are unaware of.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/how-polands-anti-semites-helped-colonise-palestine
Obviously the author has his grievances, but he does stick to the facts. Poland was very enthusiastic in supporting Zionism as a way of getting rid of its Jewish population. It played a key role in training Zionist militias, in particular later Prime Minister Menachem Begin himself. So clearly the Poles weren't the angels we were taught and Nazi Germany was far more pragmatic than we are told in the lead-up to the war. This probably has some parallells to the current UA-RU war, as past UA extremism and intolerance is whitewashed by the Western press.
That said, Hitler's invasion is justified by revisionists on the same flimsy grounds that Russia's is now by its apologists. I am willing to believe that the Poles were mistreating Germans in the "Danzig corridoor", but this was the 1930s. Kristallnacht had just happened. Was Nazi Germany really the "dindu nuffin" that Unz and other revisionists would have us believe? The entire period in question is a stark reminder of how toxic nationalism taken to its fullest extent often is.
Those facts you list are pretty well known (to historians). Along with Poland being an asshat towards Lithuania:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Polish_ultimatum_to_Lithuania
or that they used Germans annexing parts of Czechia to expand their own territory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Olza#Part_of_Poland_(1938%E2%80%931939)
or that Poland repressed their other minorities, not just Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization#Ukrainians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Ukrainians_in_Eastern_Galicia
So there is no some grand conspiracy to whitewash Interwar Poland, just as there is no conspiracy to hide the existence of Ukrainian radical nationalists. It's about emphasis and rhetoric: when all you talk about is how the 2nd Republic was oppressive, or how some Ukrainian soldiers openly sport Nazi insignias — most likely you are a biased hack, like Unz. Unfortunately, a lot of nuance is lost along the way, because Ukraine should drop radical nationalists as their values are antithetical to EU which Ukraine wants to join.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link