site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

40
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Leftism is not transhumanism

Certainly they're not identical, no. But, this book was published pretty recently:

In Fully Automated Luxury Communism, Aaron Bastani conjures a vision of extraordinary hope, showing how we move to energy abundance, feed a world of 9 billion, overcome work, transcend the limits of biology, and establish meaningful freedom for everyone. Rather than a final destination, such a society merely heralds the real beginning of history.

Sounds like transhumanism to me. Marx speaks positively of the outcomes of increased automation in The Fragment on Machines from the Grundrisse, saying that it will lead to

the general reduction of the necessary labour of society to a minimum, which corresponds to the artistic, scientific etc. development of the individuals in the time set free, and with the means created, for all of them.

Kolakowski's Main Currents of Marxism offers an interesting perspective on this, tracing the intellectual heritage of Marxism from ancient esoteric traditions that taught of the inherent divinity and perfectibility of mankind and the necessity for man to aspire to godhood, down through Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit, and ultimately to Marx himself and his faith in humanity's power to radically reshape the "natural" order. I don't know how you can deny that a belief in progress and a belief in the capacity of man's reason to reshape the world and overcome social problems are central to leftism, and I don't know how you can deny the affinity between those same principles and transhumanism.

As I know you are already aware, there are people who are opposed to the whole idea of humans transcending their biological limits - forget whether it's possible, they don't even view it as desirable! To such people, the difference between orthodox Marxism and your preferred brand of transhumanism looks like merely an internal squabble over implementation details, and perhaps also over the scope of the project.

what problem do you think «socially necessary labour time» is supposed to solve in the Marxist framework?

It's a sufficiently generic concept that anything I said about Marx's motivations for developing the concept would just be speculation, absent a more explicit source that discusses the matter.

what is alienation that Vaush has mentioned?

Alienation for Marx is a result of capitalist social relations, not automation qua automation.

Moreover, Orthodox Marxists were always acutely aware that necessary advances will be forged by the engine of capitalism.

Yes, absolutely. Capitalism was always understood to be a necessary stage of development, and that it would furnish the tools of its own destruction, at which point those tools would be appropriated for allegedly more pro-social ends.

Every capitalist in the world would be more than happy to embrace socialism in a post-scarcity world. There's no practical difference between prince and pauper in a world like that. I'm aggressively right-wing and if we were actually in Paradise I would not care.

Ascending past all restraint and limitation isn't left or right-wing. Whether you imagine it as an angelic idle life in Heaven, or uploading yourself to the Great Machine, or being cared for by robots in your eternal nursing home, everyone yearns to be free of the human condition. It's one of the few dreams I'd call universal.

It's one of the few dreams I'd call universal.

Well...

Certainly I acknowledge that the vast majority of people, of any political persuasion, if asked if they would like to live in Paradise (whatever we ultimately mean by that term), would answer "yes". The main historical debate has been over whether such a condition was possible, and that debate has been quite vociferous. The most forceful exposition of the view that mankind is inherently flawed and incapable of transcending his limitations is of course found in Christianity. Christians too dream of utopia, but of course since we know that the Kingdom of God is fiction, the Christian position is tantamount to the claim that utopia is impossible and not worth striving for in actuality.

Even still, it cannot be called a universal dream. Orwell's Can Socialists Be Happy? provides some hints in this direction:

A book like Brave New World is an expression of the actual fear that modern man feels of the rationalised hedonistic society which it is within his power to create. A Catholic writer said recently that Utopias are now technically feasible and that in consequence how to avoid Utopia had become a serious problem. We cannot write this off as merely a silly remark. For one of the sources of the Fascist movement is the desire to avoid a too-rational and too-comfortable world.

I don't think Nietzsche would have wanted to live in Paradise either. Although, in his typical style, he approaches the issue only obliquely; it's more of an ethos that has to be absorbed from reading his entire corpus, rather than an issue he tackles directly in any one place.

Christians too dream of utopia, but of course since we know that the Kingdom of God is fiction, the Christian position is tantamount to the claim that utopia is impossible and not worth striving for in actuality.

This technically violates the rule against consensus-building--"we know" is too strong. More subtly, I know "Christians" (in the sense that they identify with Christianity while doubting the metaphysics of it) who see the Kingdom of God as unattainable but worth striving for as an ideal, so you need to be careful about making assertions regarding what "we" know, as well as what the "Christian position" is.