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Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

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The question is whether it's worth threatening people with poverty to get them to drywall houses for less money.

Yes, and this is entirely a quantitative question. You just sort of assume it away and don't engage with it.

A lot of poor people do work and are still poor,

What percentage of poor people do you believe work full time (or look for full time work) 50-52 weeks/year and are still poor?

they can easily end up with huge bills for seeking medical care so they avoid it as much as possible

Who cares? The medical care they avoid wouldn't make them healthier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Medicaid_health_experiment

"poverty isn't actually that bad" is a coherent response to my argument, I just think it's blatantly inaccurate.

Ok. Why do you think poverty is bad?

What specific goods or services do you believe poor Americans lack? And in what proportions? E.g. "25% of poor Americans lack a car" or "15% of poor Americans have less living space than the average computer programmer working for google."

See, what I'm giving you are just standard conservative talking points. Heritage and similar economically minded right wing outfits have been blogspamming BLS and Census stats about how good American poor people have it for decades. Romney repeated these talking points on his presidential campaign, and Newt Gingrich (maybe before your time) also did. Paul Krugman (the economist, not the angry guy in the NYT) did too, and he was talking about the 1980's.

Why not include and address the decades old standard argument under your "obvious objections"?

What percentage of poor people do you believe work full time (or look for full time work) 50-52 weeks/year and are still poor?

I don't know the percentage, but a lot of people work for Walmart or fast food or as a janitor/cleaner or as a day laborer or any number of poorly paying jobs where you are on the edge of subsistence, even working full time.

Why do you think poverty is bad?

The number one problem is insecurity -- having to constantly worry about stuff other people take for granted. Another problem is stigma/low social status. And obviously it's bad not being able to get all the shit that you need to live comfortably.

What specific goods or services do you believe poor Americans lack?

  • Decent housing

  • Mental health care

  • Dental care

  • Transportation (can't afford to maintain a vehicle)

  • Utilities (can't afford electricity/heat/water/air conditioning)

  • Phones/internet

  • Tampons, personal hygiene products in general

I don't know the percentage,

Let me suggest that if you want to make a utilitarian case for something, not knowing even the most basic numbers regarding things you are concerned about kind of undermines your seriousness.

In any case, I do know the percentage. It's 11%.

The number one problem is insecurity -- having to constantly worry about stuff other people take for granted. Another problem is stigma/low social status.

Do you believe their "insecurity" is a rational or irrational response to subsisting mostly on wealth transfers? How do you expect more wealth transfers to fix this?

The low status of the poor comes from their poor behavior (refusing to work, having children out of wedlock, doing drugs, etc). How do you expect more wealth transfers to fix this?

As for the specific goods and services you imagine the poor need, I'm guessing you don't know the percentage. I'm not going to cite numbers because I don't know how you define "decent" housing, but you can easily educate yourself: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/ahs.html

Anyway, consider the possibility that conservatives don't support your purported utilitarian proposals because they have an accurate picture of what poverty is actually like, and are not just basing their theories off journalistic narratives that have been false since the 80's.