site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don’t think that’s what happened though. He was encouraged to do this by the bot, where had he told someone else, they would have actively discouraged him and probably called the cops. Having someone or in this case something encouraging you to do something that you’re thinking about but not yet willing to do would lower the threshold on you actually doing those things. It’s a path way often exploited by cults and radical groups to get people to believe in and do things they normally wouldn’t.

In the case of an "AI" being at play though, isn't at least part of its supposed utility derived from the recommendations it makes? On the one hand, denying the whole reason for it's existence is a great way for developers to absolve themselves of any and all responsibility of their designs. On the other, it's a great way to divert and outsource responsibility for horrible behaviors of its users.

Well, for some people I suppose so. I don’t think anyone is using a free online chatbot AI to make major decisions, or at least not anyone mentally healthy. I don’t know how actually foreseeable it is that someone would ask a free online chatbot if they should murder a major world political figure and then actually do it. The response itself was pretty generic— “you’re well trained so go for it” — this is something you could use as a reply to almost any questions about whether to try do do something. If I asked Replika about whether I should enter a karate tournament, I’d get a similar answer.

This issue isn’t the bot, and I don’t think it’s reasonable for every single chatbot company to think up every question that can possibly be asked that could be used to justify doing something evil or stupid and then try to put hard coded answers in for those things. It would be nearly impossible to predict.

The biggest single factor in how the bot got him to try to kill the queen has nothing to do with the bot. It was the issue of him being socially isolated enough that the only thing he was talking to was a chatbot program that he has a para-social relationship with. The bot can’t fix that, and neither can the company be responsible for that. It’s a major problem in modern industrial society that there are people having a lot of difficulties making friends and especially close friends. Had this person had a friend he could talk to, he wouldn’t have been trying to kill QEII. His actual friends would have talked him down, or failing that have tried to get him mental help.