site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 10, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Do we need to accept that decolonization was good?

Self-determination counts for a lot. People getting to rule themselves makes people happier. No taxation without representation, after all.

I think the idea of "White man's burden" could've been true, the Brits could've altruistically given good government and institutions to weaker peoples and raised their quality of life. In practice, there was a lot of resource extraction with minimal effort to raise the quality of life for the masses.

I think decolonization was also handled horribly though. I think ideally it would've been a longer process with a slow but consistent withdrawal as institutions are built up and colonial leadership trains their successors as they hand off the reigns. But I'm sure it was a tricky situation when the locals look around, see that their poor and the whites are rich even though they live on the same sort of land, and they know for a fact that there's been a decent amount of exploitation going on, so they not unreasonably conclude that exploitation was 100% of the reason their lives sucked and want the whites out of their ASAP.

I think what I’m really getting at is an HBD argument. Africa never developed for Garret Jones style low average IQ making it difficult to build state capacity. And some sort of colonial aristocracy was better and providing functional government - even if it wasn’t Democracy.

It’s seems like the old trope

White people move in - gentrification

White people leave - white flight and we don’t have resources. White people stay resource extraction. White people leave no development. It seems like the only constant is a poorer dysfunctional underclass regardless of which policy choices are made. Now if colonials want resource extraction they are still building railroads, infrastructure, and enough state capacity to make sure militias aren’t raiding their mines.

People on the left would cite like “Why Nations Failed” and if we just did these policy rules everything would work out. But it’s feeling a lot more like Garret Jones world where some areas just always fail.