site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

True, but that measurement still doesn't adjust for working hours. Americans work far longer hours than e.g. Germans, Danes, Dutch etc. Once you adjust for both PPP and working hours, the distance between Germanic Europe and America isn't nearly as radical as is often claimed. Also worth noting that Europeans are taxed at higher rates, hence lower disposable income but this means higher education is largely free from out of pocket expenses, healthcare far cheaper etc. It can be debated whether this is ultimately a better social choice, but certainly by some outcomes (e.g. life expectancy) it isn't clear that the US has the better system.

It's different for Southern Europe (stagnation for 20+ years) and EU Eastern Europe (spent half a century behind imposed communism).

So now we're onto "Americans are richer because they work harder"? But... it appears Germans work about 34.6 hours per week compared to Americans 38.7. According to the tables linked, Americans made $46,600 to Germans $32,100. If the Germans worked as much as Americans and were paid accordingly, they'd be up to $35,900. So it doesn't look like working hours are going to help much. For the household numbers in those tables, in-kind social benefits are accounted for.

deleted

Our stereotype here in the states is basically that Europeans are wealthier and happier than Americans, with their social services protecting the poor and public services like transportation representing a genuine difference in wealth in which the US doesn't come out on top.

Yeah, that's kind of a standard narrative from the left (not just the far left) and has been for a long time. Balance of immigration says otherwise. Sometimes you'll hear the same sort of thing from (well-off) immigrants in the tech field, so far I haven't been quite rude enough to say "Well, then why are you here?" directly.