site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2yr ago (text post)   33816 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I like the thrust of this post, going a bit deeper into the very surface level 'wokeism is a religion' idea. To me wokeism is a pretty clear continuation of the 'secular' ideologies that have become so prominent in the last few centuries - fascism, nationalism, communism, and of course capitalism. Wokeism at the highest level seems to be a way to square liberalism and the idea of equality with capitalism. People who believe in the ideology hook line and sinker don't want to necessarily throw away the wealth generated by capitalism, but also can't stand certain ideas about who have more merit or value.

Yet, how is the structure of their progressive thought any different from the very Christians they chastise?

I could do quite a deep dive here, but suffice to say there are major differences. The structure of woke thought is much more practical, much more 'temporary' so to speak. The best version of wokeism says that we must make society equal because we are quickly approaching a post-scarcity world. Once that happens, it's crucial that we are on a level playing field or billionaires/the multinational corporate class will eat everything. People will be segregated based on race, sexuality, gender, etc. We're at a hinge moment, and if we don't fix things soon we will lose our chance.

At it's core, wokeism is political and societal.

Christianity on the other hand is extremely individual and personal. To quote C.S. Lewis:

If individuals live only seventy years, then a state, or a nation, or a civilization, which may last for a thousand years, is more important than an individual. But if Christianity is true, then the individual is not only more important but incomparably more important, for he is everlasting and the life of a state or a civilization, compared with his, is only a moment.

Perhaps we will see a woke iconoclast to come in and set things straight - perhaps not. Either way, I see wokeism as a temporary political movement, and I'd wager most of its adherents do as well.

People are too easily misled by "positive" language and symbols, and think that merely "identifying" with a word, a flag, a cross, is enough to be virtuous. I disagree, and despite the woke progressive liberal's claim that they have embraced secularism, they seem to fall into the same psychological patterns that characterize the (ostensibly) religious.

Yep, this ground has been trod quite a bit by rationalists under the name of status signaling. Christians would likely call it Pride, the worst sin of all.

It's not a new idea, I think the problem is most folks don't really care enough to self-reflect, or aren't challenged enough to ever have to think about how good of a person they are. I think we broadly agree.

To say that Christianity says it's enough to adhere to the rituals and motions to be good is quite a stretch.

Yep I'm not claiming that Christianity says that at all. Like I said, pride is the worst and most pernicious sin for most Christians given that it's the sin of Lucifer. Pride in my view is very similar to status seeking behavior without real belief or sincere humility behind it.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats