site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

She (and many feminists) seem to really believe that the biological differences between men and women can be of no particular moment in an egalitarian world, to the point where we don't even have language to distinguish such things.

I'm unaware of any particular importance asssigned to hair color aside from a couple of jokes and maybe a few genuinely obsolete beliefs about gingers, yet we still have language to distinguish hair colors.

Well, I certainly don't endorse Haslanger's argument, but I think the most charitable interpretation is probably that we would still have words like "male" and "female" (and still use them in most of the contexts where we tend to use those particular words today) but that the words "man" and "woman" (and in racial contexts, the words "white" and "black") are packed with social meaning we must discard if we're ever going to live in an egalitarian society.

And to be blunt: I think this is absurd, and Haslanger's having written the words I quoted substantially decreases my ability to take her seriously in other ways. But this is the kind of thing you find when you dig into all the "critical theory" schools, be that gender or sexuality or race or whatever. The best I can do to steelman such arguments is to acknowledge that if we ever do have the technology to move our minds into manufactured bodies, then concepts like "race" and "gender" and "sexuality" are likely to in fact face annihilation. But since we do not have such technology, almost nothing said by these people makes any sense if their goal is to apply it to the world we actually inhabit.