This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The film is interesting because it's not a simple story abou a utopia being destroyed by dastardly men: it's clearly a pretty shitty experience for the Kens, it shows vectors of female power, and at the end it shows the Barbies mostly recreating the old shitty world instead of having learned anything, despite the talk of patriarchy and complaining of a single-sex dominated society.
Although I would agree that Greta Gerwig probably didn't intend for it to be some MRA rallying cry, death of the author and all that. The movie is narratively textured enough to support alternative interpretations, and the aesthetics and excellent acting by Gosling make it worth watching.
I guess what I meant by reading politics into it is that someone doesn't have to imagine Gerwig's politics, project them onto the movie, and be stuck in that interpretive box.
It's far from unknown for writers to write things promoting a point of view, and not realize that they've actually shown that their point of view isn't as great as they think. The more ideological the writer is being, the more likely this is to happen.
People in real life can be hypocrites without realizing it. So it's not that hard for an author to have the characters and themes in the work end up hypocritical without realizing it.
That's what you get when you think your outgroup is cartoonishly evil. Kens are oppressors because they're evil and what evil people do is oppress. They don't act to benefit themselves--they act Because They are Evil.
Not sure if you have seen the film? The Kens definitely aren't portrayed as evil, they're just misguided and naive and kinda sweet. Gerwig said she was inspired by her 4-year-old's emotional lability.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I mean, it could be that Gerwig is making a point made by other progressives: there were big moments (e.g. Emancipation) followed by retrenchment of bigotry in other ways (Jim Crow).
I see a lot of progressives applying this to modern times even though it really doesn't fit imo. There can be a denial of progress or the belief that patriarchy/racism just transmuted or concealed itself to explain why the movement needs to continue. As Kanye put it: racism still alive they just be concealing it.
If you're a liberal feminist you do have some questions to answer about why we're not in the Promised Land. You can look to the fundamental deficiencies of the ideology OR...patriarchy is so dastardly and brilliant it can lose the war, put on a new coat and a latex mask of an ever more feminine society and still pull off its mission.
More options
Context Copy link
Hence why, despite it being trite and annoying in parts, I think it'll be remembered. It actually is art of some description and is speaking to how people feel about our current condition.
That said I am eagerly waiting for the fancut that removes the whiny lectures and focuses on the real Kenergy behind it all.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link