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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   28981 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 7, 2023

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Trying to trap your opponent between heresy and concession is a dick move in my opinion.

Another way to frame it is "trying to find out your opponent's basic beliefs and how they interact . Which is essential to debate. Not even for "gotchas"; you have to know why Lance is pro-choice and why to even have a productive discussion.

It's Lance's fault he's so bad at organizing his beliefs that he trips when he has to consider them holistically.

As for whether it's "heresy": I mean, whose fault is it if your side considers it so? Not Tim's issue.

Personally I don’t think you can have a truly fair debate in any position where there’s an audience.

Maybe not. But we'll have to make do.

I think there’s a problem when those beliefs are widely considered heresy. Then you have the problem of having been asked to publicly commit to positions that poisoned the well. Asking if the founders are racist is asking a person to pre-commit to the idea that they were (and are thusly tainted) or deny it (and thus discredit yourself). In the case of the abortion debate, it’s about committing to frames (a woman’s choices are her alone to make, even while pregnant, or that the woman should have no choices while pregnant that might endanger the fetus).

I was thinking of Rufo. His opponent is not conducting a good-faith investigation of his beliefs in preparation for constructive discussion, he’s forcing him to admit to having taboo opinions in an environment where that will destroy him. Of course, I can’t know this with certainty but I feel pretty sure.

By contrast, with the abortion case, admitting that you think there are times it’s okay to force a woman to do something for the sake of her unborn child is pretty bad for the guy’s specific argument but it’s not going to get you unpersoned or debanked.

he’s forcing him to admit to having taboo opinions in an environment where that will destroy him

If you're referring to "Jefferson was a racist" why is that taboo and how would admitting to it destroy Rufo?

Not Tim's issue.

Ad hominem attacks don't become not dick moves, just because they are based upon characteristics of its victims and not aggressors. That it isn't Tim creating the enviroment which considers valid arguments immoral, but merely exploiting it, doesn't make him in the right.

It's not an ad hominem. It's simply things inconvenient to admit in the target's milieu.

If that counts as a dick move in debate then the entire concept is a dick move. It's an absurd standard.

No religious debate could ever happen if one party couldn't poke the other's beliefs because they might have to choose between sticking with incoherency and saying something that's unpopular.

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