naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
30658 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
4bpp
After January 20th, all orange flairs are considered political
1yr ago
The right comparison surely is not police action in Western countries, but Russia/Ukraine. Depending on whether you ultimately believe that the hospital was hit by the Palestinians themselves, this story either has the shape of the Konstantinovka market missile (where the NYT timed their "actually it was the Ukrainians" article to coincide with Zelenskiy's US visit for reasons I'd still like to understand better) or any number of prior cases with hospitals/train stations/hotels being hit (to Ukrainian claims of "atrocity" and Russian claims of "military were stationed there").
I doubt anything actually resembling war like Ukraine_Russia is comparable to Hamas-Israel. In the Hamas conflict, Hamas wants its own people to die, because that is literally their most effective weapon in their toolbox.
4bpp
After January 20th, all orange flairs are considered political
anti_dan 1yr ago
There is a sense in which it is effective for Hamas but not Ukraine (the former has no state capacity or military mobilisation and therefore relies on inflaming more Palestinians to join their cause/participate in the fighting, while the latter can easily put anyone who would ever be willing to fight under arms and has little to gain from additional internal anti-Russian sentiment on the margin), but I contend that the more significant dimension in either conflict is Western support, and any reporting (certainly any reporting that we see) from them is primarily aimed at the Western audience. The Western world has the military-economic power to snuff out either of the belligerents in either conflict at the cost of perhaps cutting down on dessert and gratuitous taxi rides for a few months; the only obstacle to overcome to get it to do that is to talk its people into a state of sufficient moral outrage on your behalf that they would actually be willing to bear those sacrifices.
Somewhat, yes. The West can beat Russia, but it can't be certain that wouldn't have high costs. It could also just let Russia win.
Hamas can't win unless the West turns on Israel fully. Which is why Gazan's dying is literally all they have. It won't work on someone like me who sees the strategy as fully transparent.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The right comparison surely is not police action in Western countries, but Russia/Ukraine. Depending on whether you ultimately believe that the hospital was hit by the Palestinians themselves, this story either has the shape of the Konstantinovka market missile (where the NYT timed their "actually it was the Ukrainians" article to coincide with Zelenskiy's US visit for reasons I'd still like to understand better) or any number of prior cases with hospitals/train stations/hotels being hit (to Ukrainian claims of "atrocity" and Russian claims of "military were stationed there").
I doubt anything actually resembling war like Ukraine_Russia is comparable to Hamas-Israel. In the Hamas conflict, Hamas wants its own people to die, because that is literally their most effective weapon in their toolbox.
There is a sense in which it is effective for Hamas but not Ukraine (the former has no state capacity or military mobilisation and therefore relies on inflaming more Palestinians to join their cause/participate in the fighting, while the latter can easily put anyone who would ever be willing to fight under arms and has little to gain from additional internal anti-Russian sentiment on the margin), but I contend that the more significant dimension in either conflict is Western support, and any reporting (certainly any reporting that we see) from them is primarily aimed at the Western audience. The Western world has the military-economic power to snuff out either of the belligerents in either conflict at the cost of perhaps cutting down on dessert and gratuitous taxi rides for a few months; the only obstacle to overcome to get it to do that is to talk its people into a state of sufficient moral outrage on your behalf that they would actually be willing to bear those sacrifices.
Somewhat, yes. The West can beat Russia, but it can't be certain that wouldn't have high costs. It could also just let Russia win.
Hamas can't win unless the West turns on Israel fully. Which is why Gazan's dying is literally all they have. It won't work on someone like me who sees the strategy as fully transparent.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link