This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Kind of. They are Black Americans, with a society and culture distinct and separate. A kind of parallel society, and one that seems antagonistic to the other Americans. Similar to South Africa, really.
They aren't kind of Americans. They simply are Americans. I'm not eager to get into what defines who is and isn't an American, but it seems pretty clear to me that anyone who's family has been living in the United States for ~2 hundred years (or potentially even longer) is an American with no caveats. Additionally, I don't know if I agree with your framing as African American culture as being separate from the broader culture of the United States. It may be distinct but it certainly is not separate. It certainly isn't comparable to the situation in South Africa where there is a unique African culture and identity that was not shaped by European influences. African American culture in the United States is inextricably entwined with what you might call American culture and it has unquestionably shaped (and been shaped by) the broader culture in the United States.
More options
Context Copy link
This. This comment right here.
People on the Motte make a lot of fun, often correctly, of the newest crop of social historians and academics and a lot of the crap they produce. But this comment demonstrates in my eyes quite convincingly that they have something of value buried there.
It’s a classic example of “othering”. American is literally by definition not something you can split up. It refers to nationality, not any sort of subgroup. It refers to a broad group political construct of humans. And deliberately sectioning it off for no good reason only plays into the hands of bad actors. And historically, it’s downright ignorant. America does have a large history of immigration that is literally inseparable from its current makeup.
Source? I disagree, "American" is at least as much cultural as it is political. It's why grinding down immigrant (and native) enclaves was seen as a worthwhile project, why public schools were so massively popular, and why Hollywood was so inmportant both domestically and abroad in shaping what America is. Baseball, Coca-Cola, and apple pie are not political projects, and I absolutely reject any attempt to define them out of any importance to the concept of "America." I'd like to believe that only ivory tower academics could be so disconnected from society that they believe that the only thing American about America is writings on dusty papers.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link