site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

33
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

If I oppose you shooting a bunch of cannon balls at my house, I'm not canceling ballistics, I'm canceling your use of ballistics in this particular way.

"Cancelling" math would be something like what the Pythagoreans did (though cancel isn't the best verb) when trying to suppress the proof/discovery that root 2 isn't rational (please let's not get bogged down in the historicity of my characterization of this particular example, it's an analogy). To consider mathematical facts themselves as dangerous or harmful. These people didn't cancel machine learning or convergence proofs or gradient descent. They cancelled an application of machine learning. If I say that a Chinese style social credit system or all encompassing surveillance infrastructure are bad or should not be implemented, I'm not cancelling the math. Just the application area.

If I oppose you shooting a bunch of cannon balls at my house, I'm not canceling ballistics, I'm canceling your use of ballistics in this particular way.

This isn't analogous to the actual situation in any way, though. It's more akin to you opposing anyone shooting any cannons at any direction. In which case it'd be fairly appropriate to claim that you are canceling ballistics.

The software that generates rap lyrics is a bunch of maths. More specifically, it's an algorithm that takes some set of inputs (I'm guessing some sets of strings and some random numbers?) and produces some set of outputs (in the form of a string of lyrics). It's a bunch of maths much like how the proof that the square root of 2 is irrational is a bunch of maths. In my hypothetical "what-if" scenario that we are talking about, the "cancelers" have a problem with this bunch of maths being used whatsoever, regardless of the characteristics of the individuals involved in creating or running the rap-generation software. This is accurately described as "canceling a bunch of maths," rather than the social context around the usage of such.

I thought they just want to cancel the use case of training an AI to rap about tough black life in the hood while throwing about the word nigga. I believed they would be fine with I don't know an AI that explains things to blind people or summarizes news articles or generates sport news from the match records or whatever.

Yes, but this conversation isn't about an AI that explains things to blind people or summarizes news articles or generates sport news from the match records or whatever. It's about a piece of software that generates rap lyrics about tough black life in the hood while throwing about the word nigga. That specific piece of software - as in, the software that generates those rap lyrics because it has been trained - is a bunch of maths. In my hypothetical, "they" want to "cancel" that. No, they don't want to "cancel" the entire notion of training AI to do stuff (which would also be a type of "canceling" a bunch of maths). They want to "cancel" one particular instantiation of that concept, which is itself a bunch of maths. They don't want anyone using that specific piece of software that generates rap lyrics - i.e. a bunch of maths.