site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

33
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The method's supporters maintain that children should be put in a book-rich environment and the rest will take care of itself

I don't even remember learning to read, but I know I was taught at home before starting school, and I'm pretty sure my parents weren't raised on 'whole word' or the likes.

The problem with that method is it works - if you have a 'book-rich' environment, which in turn means parents with a reasonable education level themselves and more importantly, the impetus to educate and help educate their kids.

Not all kids are in such homes, however. I wasn't - we weren't 'book rich'. I was lucky in that my immediate family were interested in teaching me, but for instance, I can proudly claim never to have been the recipient of unfair privilege by having bedtime story books read to me.

There are kids where parents have low literacy levels themselves. There are kids living in homes where they don't have access to books. There are kids whose parents (if there are parents plural and not a lone parent) are about as disengaged as it is possible to be and just leave the kids to raise themselves (sometimes this is because the parents are struggling with mental health and other issues and can barely take care of themselves, sometimes it's because they're scum). Those kids are not getting a helping hand at home about "this entire word is 'cat' and look, that is the picture of a cat, link the sound and the image to learn to read 'cat'" to learn off entire words.

Old-fashioned, learn it off by heart, do drills and repetitive learning is boring and unsexy and not shiny bright novelty, but it works (not perfectly, there is no perfect system). The downside of the old methods is a lot of rote learning without understanding, kids who could parrot off an answer but who had no idea how to solve problems if the mantra didn't apply, which is why the newer educational theories revolted against that, and rightly. But the downsides of the new ideas is that there was an unexamined presumption that parents and the home environment would be taking up the slack, so that the teachers only had to guide the little darlings on self-directed learning, to be facilitators and encouragers which was a much more flattering self-image than that of the traditional strict schoolmarm.

Mr. "negative, elitist, racist views of linguistic purity" can go whistle for himself; a lot of us came from what would now be called disadvantaged backgrounds and this teaching opened up avenues of experience to us, by making books accessible, that we would never otherwise have encountered.

I honestly do feel that being unable to read is a handicap, not just for the economic notion of 'you are unemployable' but for the entire range of human excellence it cuts you off from. And people whose pet theories have resulted in a lot of children being handicapped because the theoretic ideal didn't work out for them in practice should be put into the stocks and pelted with wadded-up copies of the textbooks.

to be facilitators and encouragers which was a much more flattering self-image than that of the traditional strict schoolmarm

Why? I think this is a key question. Why is it more flattering to one's self-image to be a pseudo-peer to the kids than to be feared, obeyed, and hierarchically much higher than the kids? When did it become so? Previous generations of teachers didn't seem to have a problem with being authoritative. Is it a kind of expanding empathy? Or is it because it's too militaristic and after WW2 got associated with Nazi-"vibes"? Is it because the teachers don't want to grow up and want to "relate" to the "fellow kids" as we are supposed to be eternal teenagers now? Is it like when a mother and a daughter say they are "besties" and use first names to call each other?


Also I don't think it's exactly a book-rich parental environment that you need. Rates of higher education have shot through the roof in recent decades, especially in poorer countries like Eastern Europe, bringing many first-generation educated people, who did not have an academically oriented home environment. But still there are styles of existence that can better foster learning and academic success later on. I mean when the parents are conscientious, have a long time horizon etc. For example they may have no books at all, but if they discuss plans at the dinner table, like "next year we are going to have X chickens, I'll go and buy them two weeks from now at the market", "once we have 3 pigs and sell them, we can earn X money, which will allow us to build a new shed", "tomorrow we'll have to go fix the fence that the neighbor's horse kicked down". As opposed to, eg. shouting, fighting, drinking, leaving the yard to disarray, with garbage everywhere, no plans beyond the next hour, etc. In a good, sober, smart environment a kid can pick up the necessary skills for academic success even if the parents never talk about Shakespeare. What's needed is something else, something deeper. Similarly I don't think it's the reading of a bedtime story, but probably simply the affection, attention and time for the kid. It could also be an evening chat about stories about when grandma was young or what happened at school. (And of course there's the argument that all these parental behaviors are simply indicators of genetic propensities that anyway already get inherited by the kid.)