This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
AshLael
Just here to farm downvotes
5mo ago·Edited 5mo ago
Osama Bin Laden's "Letter to America" outlining his justifications for the September 11 attack has been deleted from the Guardian's website.
This is in response to a new TikTok trend where people are posting their reactions to reading it for the first time and encouraging others to - usually with either an implication or an outright assertion that Bin Laden was right. A sample compilation of such videos can be seen here.
For those who want to refresh their memory of Bin Laden's manifesto (and IMO it's completely indefensible for the Guardian to have removed it), an archived version is here. He lists a litany of grievances against the crimes and perversions of the west (amusingly including Clinton's blowjob), but the first and most dominant one - and the one that I expect has led to this rekindled interest - is of course America's support for Israel. He describes the creation and continuation of Israel as "one of the greatest crimes". And of course he also claims that the jews control America's policies, media, and economy (while claiming at the same time that the killing of American civilians is justified because America is a democracy and therefore civilians are responsible for America's policies).
So there we have it. Hatred of Israel is leading young online leftists to endorse not only the terrorism by Hamas against Israel, but the terrorism of Bin Laden against America. I'm sure this will end well.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that all English-language media from Al Quada, Bin Laden, etc after around the mid-90s is propaganda aimed not at middle eastern Arabs and Muslims, but at Western leftists who can be persuaded to sympathize with aspects of their cause. There's no reason to believe that it has any relation to what actually drives middle eastern Muslims to join the cause. Any messaging aimed at them would be in Arabic and published in news sources and media channels that they actually read.
I believe their actual motivations, which drives their actual planners and recruits, are along the lines of what is described here. That's from 2002, the Iraq war advocacy has not aged terribly well, but I think the second section on the actual motivations of Islamic fundamentalists is still right on the nose. Short version is that they're mad that western secular values have permeated the world and their own societies and have proven to be far more successful than Islamic fundamentalist societies. As such, they're likely to continue opposing us no matter what we do regarding Israel.
Also, as screye describes below, it seems that letter was in fact written by a radicalized American. As such, the real story is less that maybe Osama had a point than that the class of people who make this type of video are so utterly ignorant that they are trivially manipulated into apologism for an ideology that would have their women locked in the home, only allowed out in Burqas, and their men murdered if they fail to convert to Islam and practice it their way.
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Notes -
Osama Bin Laden's "Letter to America" outlining his justifications for the September 11 attack has been deleted from the Guardian's website.
This is in response to a new TikTok trend where people are posting their reactions to reading it for the first time and encouraging others to - usually with either an implication or an outright assertion that Bin Laden was right. A sample compilation of such videos can be seen here.
For those who want to refresh their memory of Bin Laden's manifesto (and IMO it's completely indefensible for the Guardian to have removed it), an archived version is here. He lists a litany of grievances against the crimes and perversions of the west (amusingly including Clinton's blowjob), but the first and most dominant one - and the one that I expect has led to this rekindled interest - is of course America's support for Israel. He describes the creation and continuation of Israel as "one of the greatest crimes". And of course he also claims that the jews control America's policies, media, and economy (while claiming at the same time that the killing of American civilians is justified because America is a democracy and therefore civilians are responsible for America's policies).
So there we have it. Hatred of Israel is leading young online leftists to endorse not only the terrorism by Hamas against Israel, but the terrorism of Bin Laden against America. I'm sure this will end well.
I think it's worth keeping in mind that all English-language media from Al Quada, Bin Laden, etc after around the mid-90s is propaganda aimed not at middle eastern Arabs and Muslims, but at Western leftists who can be persuaded to sympathize with aspects of their cause. There's no reason to believe that it has any relation to what actually drives middle eastern Muslims to join the cause. Any messaging aimed at them would be in Arabic and published in news sources and media channels that they actually read.
I believe their actual motivations, which drives their actual planners and recruits, are along the lines of what is described here. That's from 2002, the Iraq war advocacy has not aged terribly well, but I think the second section on the actual motivations of Islamic fundamentalists is still right on the nose. Short version is that they're mad that western secular values have permeated the world and their own societies and have proven to be far more successful than Islamic fundamentalist societies. As such, they're likely to continue opposing us no matter what we do regarding Israel.
Also, as screye describes below, it seems that letter was in fact written by a radicalized American. As such, the real story is less that maybe Osama had a point than that the class of people who make this type of video are so utterly ignorant that they are trivially manipulated into apologism for an ideology that would have their women locked in the home, only allowed out in Burqas, and their men murdered if they fail to convert to Islam and practice it their way.
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