site banner
PaperclipPerfector  7mo ago (text post)   29671 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think Sam is right about the naivety of most modern Westerners on religion— even the religious Christians, Jews, etc. Most people in the west were raised in a comparatively nominally religious household, especially as compared to modern Islamist households. Unless you’re extremely devout, chances are that you don’t order every step you take by your religion. You might be observant enough to pray before meals, attend services, and conform to the ceremonial observances of your religion, but you’re not necessarily thinking about your religion all the time. You aren’t bothered by things your ancestors would have considered blasphemous. You don’t really see this life as a preparation for the next one. You don’t really expect God to break into history or determine the course of events.

Probably the best explanation of the difference in the religious and secular world view is found (https://glory2godforallthings.com/christianity-in-a-one-storey-universe/) here, in an essay about the one story universe vs the two story universe. The two story universe has a “real world” in which mundane reality takes place, where the laws of nature always hold and history is contingent on human behavior and nature, and a “heavenly world” where God(s), angels, demons, the souls of the dead (and depending on the religion the souls of the yet to be born) live. In that kind of a universe, the spiritual is unseen and unreliable and even unknowable, that world can only rarely interact with ours, and we can never really be sure that the squeak you heard was the guys upstairs making noise, or even that there is someone up there to make noise, or that it was your guy making the noise.

This, I think is the problem. It’s not really a material problem. It’s a philosophical problem that’s two-fold. First that God is in this world and active and makes demands on everyone. Second is that said God in their minds demands that one either submit to Islam or pay the fine or be killed. There’s no real model for enlightenment thinking here, no room for secular coexistence. Either you are a Muslim and pray to God, or you don’t and are an enemy of God.

I think Sam is right about the naivety of most modern Westerners on religion— even the religious Christians, Jews, etc. Most people in the west were raised in a comparatively nominally religious household, especially as compared to modern Islamist households.

I wonder if the whole "Judeo-Christian" ecumenical religion where people insist on the commonality between all faiths may play a role here.

I've heard many Christians just apply the same conflation to Islam: basically all religions are the same in essence (and, of course, they resemble liberalized Christianity). I remember a speaker at my college saying something to the effect of "Jesus said it, I'm sure Moses and Mohammed did too". Just taking it for granted that these religions and their central figures are the same.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats