site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Great counterexamples. Maybe if there's a thread that runs througout it's a British distrust more of the dirty business of politics, contrasted to a larger trust in the permanent bureaucracy; "Diplomacy is about surviving until the next century, politics is about suriving until Friday afternoon." Even when the civil servants in Yes Minister are portrayed as completely cynical, they still seem like a beacon of competence and stability throughout the larger society.

In contrast the American depiction of democracy itself is more optimistic (or at least it was in the early 2000s) but their suspicion of the entrenched bureaucracy is much higher.

To be honest I think the super-competent civil service is itself a mis-reading of Yes, Minister?

Consider, say, from 'The Challenge', where Hacker decides to accompany government projects with failure standards, to increase responsibility. The civil service responds with lines like this:

Sir Arnold: "Once you specify in advance what a project is supposed to achieve, and whose responsibility it is to see that it does, the entire system collapses... We move our officials around every two or three years to stop this personal responsibility nonsense."

[...]

Sir Arnold: "We've found in the past that all local government reforms rebound on us. When anybody finds a way of saving money or cutting staff in local government, it works for Whitehall just as well."

Sir Humphrey: "Yes, but local government is extravagant, overstaffed, incompetent, whereas we - "

Sir Arnold: "Exactly so."

Sir Humphrey: [chastened] "I know my duty, Arnold."

Likewise as the show went on, I felt the nepotism and incompetence of the civil service came up again?

In 'Jobs for the Boys', the civil service are engaged in propping up a pointless construction project. In 'The Compassionate Society', they make a backroom deal to set up a dodgy union protest in order to protect the jobs of administrators. In 'Doing the Honours' they're shown to be entitled and entirely uninterested in safeguarding public money. In 'A Question of Loyalty' they are indeed shown to be "extravagant, overstaffed, incompetent", and deeply wasteful. In 'Equal Opportunities' they're cartoonishly sexist, and in 'The Skeleton in the Closest', their incompetence (Humphrey: "Well of course I'm not a trained lawyer, or I wouldn't have been in charge of the legal unit!") is seen to have wasted huge amounts of money. In 'The Bed of Nails' they're shown to be thoroughly compromised and controlled by the industries they supposedly regulate, and in 'The Whisky Priest' they are amoral and completely uncaring about being complicit in acts of terrorist violence. In 'A Victory for Democracy' the Foreign Office, despite its protestations of professionalism and long-term thinking, wants to throw a democratic government under the bus for no real benefit (that is, they'll let a Yemeni-backed Marxist revolution occur in exchange for which "the Yemenis will let you keep your airport contract", which they had already - Hacker's alternative solution prevents the revolution, keeps the country a British satellite, including the contract, and incurs minimal cost in either money or lives). In 'One of Us' the civil service is shown to be infiltrated by the Soviets and completely heedless of national security concerns. And so on.

The civil service affects competence, and because they're all confident, dignified old men with posh accents many in the audience seem to buy it, but on my reading of the show the civil service are pretty incompetent.

The fundamental tension in the show, I think, is that politicians like Hacker are good at winning elections (thus worrying about polling numbers, seeking publicity opportunities, etc.), and civil servants like Humphrey are good at expanding the power of the civil service and seeking further privileges for themselves, but neither of them are good at seeking the public interest of the United Kingdom.

It's moderated a little - Hacker's instinct is usually to try to do the right thing at first, and he has to be threatened or bullied into backing down, and Humphrey does sincerely believe that the pseudo-aristocracy of the civil service is a good thing that must be preserved - but when it comes down to it, neither group are particularly competent in a meritocratic sense. Politicians try to stay in power. Civil servants try to maintain the privileges of the club. That's it.

Honestly you may well be right - it sounds like you’ve see much more of the show than I have!