This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Attempting to use one's right hand isn't the same as being right-handed! A person who is left handed can very well claim that they're so, without anyone asking how they're quite so confident in that fact, since they've never experienced the internal qualia of being right handed so they can claim that they somehow know that's not what they're feeling in the first place.
It's not news to me that this isn't the stance or primary concern of trans ideologues, I oppose them myself after all, it's my specific objection to your use of the fundamental inability for us to inhabit many counterfactual mental states as the primary criterion for denying the existence of innate senses of gender, regardless of whether that's a real thing. It has far too much collateral damage at the very least, as I've attempted to show.
Yes, a left handed person and right handed person cannot possible experience the other's qualia directly. But yes after trying both methods of writing they can without much consequence choose a preference. If we're bringing this back to gender than I've already conceded the ground that people can decide that they prefer to be flush with estrogen or testosterone as they see fit, I have no qualms with this so long as it brooks no costs or at least trivial costs on broader society. What I object to are the claims that this is anything but a recreation.
There is a version of liberal freedom of form that you espouse that seems something I could coexist with but it feels like two liberals in mao's China discussing whether a public option is communist just before the liberation army breaks down the door and puts a bullet in both our heads. We're barely even discussing the same subject as the trans advocates.
Trust me, if they're coming for us (they haven't come for me yet, India hasn't succumbed to wokism), I'm more than happy to close ranks. Consider this more of a dispute about epistemic standards than anything else.
After all, while I am OK with the nominal goal of trans people of changing sexes, and even endorse it from the perspective of transhumanism as just as valid as any desire to change the limitations of one's flesh, I demand they pass biologically before I will accept them as actually now the opposite sex, mere self-identification works for football clubs, not sex.
In other words, I think there is a non-negligible subset of trans people who feel genuine distress at being their natal sex, and would likely have that distress relieved by physical transition, but I have no issues with AGPs either, I simply resent being dictated that they're now women without possessing the relevant attributes of femininity.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link