site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

You'll be happy to know that I did in fact throw some fairly substantial amounts of money at jefftk and friends for their wastewater surveillance / sequencing / anomaly detection project. Significantly prompted by us having this conversation.

I'm genuinely heartened to hear that! I hope you don't mind if I use it as an excuse for a second-hand Effective Altruist card haha. (j/k, but presumably the ones doing admin or fundraising work get away with it).

To discuss my current stance on bioterrorism x-risk in slightly more detail, such monitoring will significantly hamper lone crazies/small groups the most. Of course, they have a hard time of it, at least in the West. Just about the hardest part of making a truly extinction-level threat of a pathogen is not dying to Alpha 0.3 halfway through the process. Look at all the issues even BSL-3+ labs have with leaks. Some degree of surveillance, even if hardly the most rigorous, has been implemented. I believe most reputable purveyors of on-demand DNA/RNA/protein synthesis are filtering for known pathogens/GOF/bioweapons, though I suspect it is hardly robust, or insurmountable to a determined adversary willing to get their hands dirty.

This doesn't solve the issue of more well-resourced actors, especially in jurisdictions with more laissez-faire policies, but nation-states are generally not omnicidal (citation hopefully not needed). Wastewater surveillance will, at the very least, tell us something is up, and might even be good enough to save civilization if a pathogen isn't ridiculously good.

I'm glad you made the donation, and I sincerely hope they manage to scale cheaply and ubiquitously enough that we get some hint of what's coming that's more robust than doctors near wet-markets wondering about a really weird flu.