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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   25685 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 4, 2023

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I wonder if the well funded caravans of migrants we see in some areas of the world have to some extend to do with funding related to EA.

I wonder if your wondering is done in good faith 🤔

Then there is Open A.I. and Chat GPT and effective altruists have been influential in Open A.I. Chat GPT has liberal bias. https://www.foxnews.com/media/chatgpt-faces-mounting-accusations-woke-liberal-bias

I think extremely few people (maybe even no one) pursue making LLMs liberally biased for EA reasons.

Climate change and veganism are two issues that could well lead to hardcore authoritarian policies and restrictions.

Since when has a group representing 3% of the population (vegans) taken enough power to implement "hardcore authoritarian policies and restrictions"?

Like with all identity movements, to elevate one group such as animals you end up reducing the position of another group, such as humans

Only for unhealthy minds, I think? Whether freeing slaves "reduced" the position of non-slaves is a question without an objective answer - only psychological interpretations. For instance, many Indians never eat meat and would tell you they don't feel "reduced" by this.

It does seem that at least a few of the people involved with effective altruism think that it fell victim to its coastal college demographics

That post is just describing regression to the mean, which every informal group encounters. Nothing unique to EA here.

My other conclusion related to the open A.I. incident as well is that the idea of these people that they are those who will put humanity first will lead to them ousting others and attempt to grab more power in the future too. When they do so, will they ever abandon it?

The same could be asked about any group with any large goal: companies, nonprofits, religious organizations. Nothing unique to EA here.

That this action is dishonorable matters

How do we know it is dishonorable?

This means that Sam Altman won't be the first.

won't be the last?

It also means that we got a movement very susceptible to the same problems of authoritarian far left movements in general of extreme self confidence to their own vision and will to power.

Do you have evidence EAs suffer from "extreme self confidence"?

This... encourages the power hungry to be part of it as well.

Again, this isn't unique to EA. Any group with money/power attracts the power hungry. What's your point?

Only for unhealthy minds, I think? Whether freeing slaves "reduced" the position of non-slaves is a question without an objective answer - only psychological interpretations. For instance, many Indians never eat meat and would tell you they don't feel "reduced" by this.

I'm sorry, are you saying that everyone who isn't Indian is an "unhealthy mind" or are you saying that everyone who eats meat is? This entire bit is confused as hell - quality of life is often psychological, and having meat taken out of my diet for the benefit of animals sure feels like an objective reduction in my quality of life to improve theirs. Status too is objectively changed - if I am not allowed to eat animals then by necessity this indicates an increase in the position of animals and a reduction in my status - from dominion over the beasts of the land to a sad sack of shit who gets less respect than a pig.

And I see no charitable justification for inserting that analogy to slaves, only a cheap appeal to emotions - it didn't improve the clarity of your point, if anything it obfuscated it, since you immediately went straight back to talking about animals.

I'm saying psychologically health people don't see status as zero-sum.

I don't have to feel like I'm losing status if slaves are freed.

I don't have to feel like I'm losing status if I stop eating meat.

Any feeling that I'm losing status is a feature of my brain, not the world.

Any feeling full stop really. Any cognition at all in fact. I'm actually only capable of engaging with reality using my brain, I didn't realise that made me psychologically unhealthy.

Actually I think you need to define psychologically healthy, because you don't seem to be describing it in my eyes. You also don't have to feel like you are losing status if I fuck your wife in front of you, or force you to blow me, but I would suggest not doing so demonstrates a lack of self respect (or a fetish, if they can be separated) not good psychological health.

You also don't have to feel like you are losing status if I fuck your wife in front of you, or force you to blow me, but I would suggest not doing so demonstrates a lack of self respect

IMO, the problem with both of those is not that I'm losing status.

Is that a dodge, or are you actually saying that you wouldn't feel like you lost status if I banged your wife in front of you? Because I wouldn't consider the status loss the biggest problem in either of those scenarios, but I would still consider it a problem.

I get the impression that you have a warped understanding of psychological strength. Status very often - if not always - is zero sum. To be the most popular or most hated requires that someone else is not occupying that spot - if they are, you have to take it from them (otherwise you are not the most popular/hated). Being psychologically healthy is not ignoring attacks, or being apathetic to them, or writing your pain off as an artifact of your brain, it is (assuming fighting back isn't an option) enduring the suffering without being broken by it. That doesn't mean it doesn't affect you or hurt you. I don't know what the psychologically healthy way to respond to either of those scenarios would be, but I'm sure it's not a thumbs up or yawn or intense rationalisation. Those strike me as closer to denial than anything else.

Is that a dodge, or are you actually saying that you wouldn't feel like you lost status if I banged your wife in front of you?

Could you maybe describe what "status" means to you?

I don't really walk around thinking "I should to X at work to gain status" or "I should make fun of Y to gain status" or "Person Z lowered my status in that meeting - I've got to be sure to get even with them." I don't think that, in order to have more/closer friends, it is important that I become more popular than someone else. I do occasionally feel embarrassed (e.g. I said something wrong in a meeting) or ashamed (e.g. I forgot about a friend's birthday).

I guess I just don't think any of these as "zero-sum".

Even in the "banged your wife" scenario - does that give you status? I don't think it would among my peer group... Would I become less popular? Would people at work think I was less competent? I don't think the effect would be very large...

Do people actually think like that? To me, it doesn't seem like a good way to approach life from either a personal-happiness perspective or a social-welfare perspective. I don't know, I find the amount of emphasis you're placing on its importance confusing. So, I see three options:

  1. There is some disconnect between what you and I mean by "status"
  2. I actually do care immensely about status - I'm just repressing it.
  3. Some people viscerally care a great deal about status. Others don't.

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