site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 11, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Baphomet Has Fallen

How much good faith is required for an American state government respecting a religion's symbols?

The Satanic Temple, specifically the Satanic Temple of Iowa, put a statue depicting the pagan idol Baphomet in the Iowa Capitol, following the letter of the law allowing religious symbols. Thing is, it's explicitly an atheistic (or rather "non-theistic") religion; they have as much belief in the reality of Baphomet as they do the Flying Spaghetti Monster (mHNAty). They use literary symbols and provocative symbols to promote science and promote humanist atheist goals of tolerance and justice. It was designed to provoke a response, and it has; a Christian broke it. Deseret News reports that:

Jason Benell, the president of the Iowa Atheists and Freethinkers, described the “targeting” of the display as “encouraged by legislators.” He wrote in a news release, “This is unacceptable. When our leaders make it permissible to destroy religious — or non-religious — displays they find religiously objectionable, they are abdicating their responsibility to safeguard the freedom of expression of the citizens they represent.”

The state of Iowa finds itself in the position of avenging the rights of atheists to display a pagan idol they don't even believe in, which mocks people of genuine Christian faith with a dark symbol drawn from mythology.

Take that to its logical conclusion.

A Christian church could create a parallel object to be installed in the Iowa Capitol, a similar deliberately provocative anti-atheist symbol to be promoted as a sacred symbol of a pseudo-atheist "Church of the Human Condition" which exposes the failures and tragedies of the Enlightenment and promotes learning how to morally philosophize using the Jefferson Bible and select readings from Ayn Rand in after-school clubs. I can think of a few:

  • A statue of Charles Darwin and Karl Marx in their best suits, French kissing atop a pile of human skulls
  • A statue of Margaret Sanger and Madalyn Murray O'Hair standing back-to-back, dressed as Greek priestesses, each holding a knife in one hand and together holding the corpse of a Black baby
  • The Invisible Pink Unicorn (possibly made of pink-glazed blown glass, in the style of My Little Pony) as the steed bearing the returning Jesus, depicted as a Super-Saiyan, His head and hair burning white, His eyes like a flame of fire, His feet like fine brass
  • Or, if we want to avoid humanoid and animal statues entirely per the Third Commandment, an orrery (representing science) surrounded by gravestones bearing the names of Marx, Darwin, O'Hair, Sanger, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Christopher Hitchens, and other prominent atheists.

Desecrating any of these would bear the same fourth-degree criminal mischief charges, with up to a year in prison and a $2,560 fine, and exposure to lawsuits by the artists and owners of the symbols.


But aside from the turnabout, I'd like to remind that atheism is treated as a religion de facto by its adherents and proselytes, and de jure by the government in having Freedom of Religion under the First Amendment. Anyone who says it is not a religion must, by implication, accept that the broken Baphomet statue is only a violation of Freedom of Expression (under the same Amendment) so any cries of Christian hypocrisy at its destruction are inaccurate on their face due to the uneven parallel. Only by accepting that atheism is a religion can atheists claim a sacred right to offend Christians.

This is another chapter in the ongoing saga of a subset of American Christians and American secularists fighting over whether or not Christianity should have a privileged social and legal status in the United States (albeit one of the more superficial elements of that conflict, namely display of religious icons). The point of these displays is to demonstrate that (some) Christians want precisely that. It's not enough that there be equal opportunity religious displays. It needs to be exclusively Christian.

A Christian church could create a parallel object to be installed in the Iowa Capitol, a similar deliberately provocative anti-atheist symbol to be promoted as a sacred symbol of a pseudo-atheist

They'd find that no one cares. To the extent that their ideological adversaries would react, it would be with mockery. This is because their goals not symmetrical. One side wants Christian symbols to have an exclusive status; the other wants government spaces to be secular. If you take down the nativity scene and the statue of baphomet, that's a win for the Satanists.

It's not enough that there be equal opportunity religious displays. It needs to be exclusively Christian.

Well, for a Christian festival, yeah? I don't see any reason to object to Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim symbols for their important religious/cultural festivals and I don't think anybody is demanding that the Chinese New Year dragons be stopped from parades or displays in the public streets.

I get what you are saying if you mean only Christian symbols are permitted in public spaces, but I don't think that's on the same level as "No, you can't only have Christian symbols for a Christian holiday, you must include secular elements or nothing, but we'll put up a menorah on the White House lawn and to object to that would be anti-Semitism and persecution". Put up the menorahs! And the nativity scenes! And even the dumb Baphomet statues! Just don't make it "you can only have Santa Claus, reindeer and snowflakes because any hint that this is a Christian festival is offensive on the face of it" like the drive-through atheists:

The FFRF sent the letter after being notified of the nativity by Justin Scott, the founder of Eastern Iowa Atheists, who does not live in Toledo. He was driving through the town on his way to an archery tournament in Tama.

...Scott added he hopes the city is prepared for the possibility to welcome more religions than just Christianity, as they might have opened a “Pandora’s box.”

“If the Satanic Temple of Iowa, who had a display in the Capitol, comes knocking and wants to put something up, I hope they are ready,” he said.

Yes, it's vitally important that the racially and ethnically diverse population of this throbbing metropolis not be offended by presuppositions that nearly everyone there is most likely some variety of Christian:

As of the census of 2010, there were 2,341 people, 901 households, and 598 families living in the city. The population density was 1,017.8 inhabitants per square mile (393.0/km2). There were 993 housing units at an average density of 431.7 per square mile (166.7/km2). The racial makeup of the city was 83.5% White, 1.1% African American, 5.8% Native American, 0.6% Asian, 4.3% from other races, and 4.8% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 11.4% of the population.

Mr. Scott seems to have no problems with being The Grinch here. How dare the local people keep up an offensive tradition that he just happened to glimpse while driving through their town at this particular time of year! Outrageous effrontery to the maximum!

I wonder what his opinion on the Butter Cow Lady is? After all, that's offensive to people who are lactose-intolerant and may indeed be dogwhistling racism!

Toledo is home to the original “Butter Cow Lady” from the Iowa State Fair, Norma (Duffy) Lyon. A bronze cow/calf sculpture was erected on the hilltop at the intersection of Highways 30 & 63 in her honor and the Toledo Library has a display case dedicated to her achievements.

I think that's what most aggrieves people; it's not a protest by people living there who have to see this every year, it's a bunch of strangers from out of town who have no roots or contact with the place. You can come to some kind of compromise with a neighbour, but some prodnose from out of state trying to tell you what you can and can't do in your own town is a different level of annoyance.