site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Well, I suppose those groups wouldn't have made that polemic because the virgin birth or transubstantiation aren't particularly inconceivable to any of them? Judaism and Islam shared enough Aristotelian metaphysics to make transubstantiation comprehensible, even if false - and of course, virgin births are quite comprehensible. Islam even expressly affirms the virgin birth. The issue with Judaism and Islam isn't so much to do with what's obvious or not as with those traditions' strong convictions regarding the unity of God.

I guess my question is whether there's any sort of "calling a deer a horse" effect here at all? Atheists today have a worldview that makes some of these beliefs seem ridiculous on their face, so it would be difficult for them to affirm them.

However, the people who made these claims historically, and who argued against them polemically, would not have found them implausible in that way. You note a Japanese author whose criticism of the virgin birth isn't that such a thing is impossible, but rather that its moral implications are questionable. Or if we take the Islamic criticism of Christianity - as I understand it, the central Islamic critique is not that the Trinity is obviously ridiculous, but rather that the Trinity is unsuitable to the dignity of God. It's not that the Trinity is absurd, but that it's insulting.

Take this:

Yes, elements like the trinity in particular are some of the biggest historical examples of "point deer, make horse" style shit tests for making dissidents reveal themselves and getting others to show a token of submission to an authority over their own sense of reason.

I am not sure this ever happened?

Christians certainly compelled people to confess belief in the Trinity - that's not in question. But I question that this was ever something plainly false, with the effect (even if unintended) of revealing intellectual dissidents? Confessions of faith like that are frequently tests to try to discover heretics or dissidents; I just doubt that the logic was ever to get someone to confess something against their own reason. Trinitarians believe that the Trinity is fully in accordance with reason; and non-Trinitarians generally had their own, substantive reasons for rejecting it.