This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Maybe my small sample size is skewed. But I would say that the illegals I’ve known who came here a couple of decades or more ago are hard-working, ambitious, and respectable. The second generation is a mixed bag: some are model citizens (including one whom I greatly respect), but far too many are net negatives to society, content to commit petty crimes, soak up government handouts, and, especially among the women, jump on the “we need compensation for putting up with this racist and sexist American society” bandwagon. I don’t know if that’s due to regression to the mean, poor cultural influences, or some other factor, but it’s a pattern I’ve noticed. In addition, more recent illegal immigrants haven’t really impressed me. Again, though, my sample is small and may be skewed. Considering your location and general line of work, I’m sure you interact with far more illegals than I do.
My experience of the children of illegals has been mostly very negative, as you note, but I’ve never personally met a first gen illegal who didn’t seem selected for being harder working and more ambitious than the norm wherever he came from. I’ve definitely heard illegals stereotyping centracos(from south of Mexico) as worse immigrants(lazier, more criminally inclined, that sort of thing) than Mexicans, but I don’t know how much of that is just ‘the next village over is our ancient enemy’ brought across international borders. I’m sure that there are plenty of immigrants who are bad people that I would not want to live around, but that has not been my dominant experience.
On reflection, I’ll happily retract the bit about Mexico not sending their best. You might very well be right that they by and large are. But due to America’s birthright citizenship, I’m not only or even primarily concerned with the generation that illegally immigrates. I’m more concerned with their offspring: Are they net users of welfare? Do they advocate the same deleterious socialist policies that helped to ruin their fatherlands? Do they push for divisive race-, ethnicity-, or gender-based programs such as DEI, affirmative action, etc? Do they vote to even further loosen our border, both de jure and de facto? Do they commit crimes at a higher rate than their Anglo neighbors (controlling for income)? As far as I can tell, the answers are yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. So the overall impact of illegal immigration is negative, even if the first generation that comes here is actually okay.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link