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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   20590 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 14, 2024

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Given how many comments I’ve seen where people have expressed the “big lie” stolen/rigged plots are so obviously dumb and almost no one here believes them, I don’t think you’re identifying a real problem.

If it’s a position this hypothetical person has not advanced and presumably they don’t believe it then I fail to see a problem. Nobody is being compelled to do anything since it’s a voluntary debate with ongoing negotiations as to what would even happen.

Somebody here should be theoretically able to meet the stated requirement.

Nobody is being compelled to do anything...

My understanding is that an ultimatum from A to B with no external enforcement mechanism would still be commonly understood as a compulsion placed on B by A.

...since it’s a voluntary debate with ongoing negotiations as to what would even happen.

This is exactly what I am replying to. @ymeskhout presented a conversational norm/expectation that they felt was necessary to have the conversation, and I was questioning the validity and generality of that expectation.

An isolated demand for rigor, is only a coherent concept in a world of generalized principles. Obviously it is okay to treat different cases differently, but you should be aware that you are doing it, and if you are worried about epistemic hygiene you should interrogate your reasons for the different treatment of different topics.

@ymeskhout seems to appreciate this, and offers their reason for making this specific demand in this specific situation, I just don't find "they might motte and bailey me" to be a very convincing reason for making this specific demand.

Of course, if the demand is mollified from, bolding mine,

I personally think pursuing the "election was flawed/unfair" angle is a sound strategy much more grounded in reality, but it requires disavowing the "election was stolen" angle in order to close off motte-and-bailey acrobatics between the two.

to,

stating one's positions clearly and unambiguously.

then I think it is totally reasonable.

Again, I am concerned specifically about the generalized principle of the form; Bob must disavow 2.a if they want to discuss 2.b with Alice. I think it is a bad principle and I am suspicious that anyone would actually apply it fairly. If you think that is a total normal and anodyne request, if you can't imagine a situation where it might be employed nefariously to manipulate the terrain of a discussion, that's fine. If you think you would/do apply it fairly when it is needed, and never when it is not warranted, that's also fine, I am not going to actually check.

I think you and @ymeskhout should have a podcast discussion about the appropriate rules for running a structured podcast debate on a contested topic with a million different theories and unclear evidence.

Thank you for the suggestion but I don't trust myself to articulate my ideas clearly in a spoken language format so I will stick to text for now.

I appreciate your clarity and expression of self-awareness.

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