This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm probably going to be corrected by some theology major (I don't care) but let me give my best explanation of Calvinism:
Before you're born, it's already predetermined whether you're going to heaven or hell.
"So why, pastor, should I be good and righteous"
"My son, when you sin, it reveals that you're wicked and going to hell. Best, therefore, to abstain from sin."
As a persuasive technique, this probably works just as good as anything. It's often difficult to tease out causality in noisy data. I point this out in the context of Scott's latest post. Look at the graphs here and tell me what you notice:
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-polyamory
I notice that choosing to be monogamous or polygamous barely matters at all across many aspects of wellbeing. But there is one key difference: fertility. Polygamous people have many fewer children.
Does polygamy cause infertility or does infertility cause polygamy? Does it matter? It's extremely dysgenic and bound to go the way of the Shakers.
And my response to this is: "So what? If I'm destined for eternal hell in 80 years I want to have an absolute blast before I die and being around people just like me will help with that." Signalling that I'm the kind of person going to hell is a good way for us hellbound to recognise each other and get together so that we can turn our lives into one continual orgistic rave of pleasure that we couldn't if we were all separated from each other. It far beats living a life of austerity and then ending up in hell anyways.
The point of predestination is that God, being timeless, already knows whether you're going to turn out to be a good person or a bad person. It's not as though you get a Hell mark on your forehead which dooms you no matter how many good things you do. It brings up awkward theological questions but from the point of view of the patient, trying to be a good person still has worth.
Saying, 'I'm obviously the sort of person who will go to hell so better sin as much as I can beforehand,' is silly and self-fulfilling.
So being a virtuous Calvinist is like one-boxing in the Newcomb's problem?
That's a good comparison:
In both, it's already known what the outcome will be (at least, to God/Omega). In both, what actions you take is tied up in it.
But you can't try to exploit the outcome being fixed, because it's dependent upon the intermediate steps—if you took the other option, you would find that it was that option that was fixed instead. So it makes sense to choose the better option.
There's a little more causation in Calvinism, but yeah, that's a good comparison. (Note, this analysis only requires knowledge: any system that has an omniscient God, which is to say most, will end up with the same result.)
I assume this is also the way that compatibilism works in general, including to atheists.
More options
Context Copy link
I understood every word in that sentence but not the sentence itself :P Could you explain, please?
Newcomb's problem is a thought experiment where a mysterious entity, who's known to be very good at predicting people's behavior, presents to you two boxes: one is transparent and contains a 1000$ and the other is opaque and might contain either nothing or one million dollars. You're given the choice of either taking only the opaque box (which is what I call one-boxing) or of taking both boxes. The entity tells you that it decided whether to put the money in the opaque box by predicting which option you will choose. If it predicted that you'll take both boxes, the opaque box is empty. If it predicted that you'll only take the opaque box, it put the million inside. What do?
If that was too muddled of an explanation, then have a Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_paradox
Or alternatively, have a link to the explanation by everybody's favorite bombastic rationality guru: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6ddcsdA2c2XpNpE5x/newcomb-s-problem-and-regret-of-rationality
That sounds about right. But I don’t see why you would ever take both boxes. The wikipedia page seems to suggest that it’s because you don’t trust the entity to predict correctly. I suppose it you really need $1000 that’s sensible but otherwise it looks like being a case of ‘so sharp you’ll cut yourself’.
Causal decision theory implies you should—after all, the money's either in the box or not, so there's no harm in taking it at this point; it's not like the money is somehow going to disappear.
I think it's wrong in this unusual case, but it is a thing it would advocate.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Yep. Only instead of a correct-so-far predictive alien, it’s the literally omniscient unfoolable inventor of human brains.
And instead of a thousand bucks or a million, one box holds a hundred years of short-sightedness and uncaring utility of others’ suffering. The other holds an eternity with billions of caring, noble people who would never betray you and a loving God even more amazing; in a body not subject to entropy and a mind not capable of depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, or any mental illness; freed from the Dunbar Number of friends you can make and able to explore universes of new places and thoughts.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link