site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 26, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

When genetic modification of humans is discussed, it is typically in the context of individual modification/augmentation. Whether in early embryonic stages or on fully developed people via gene therapy techniques, the goal is normally to modify outcomes for the specific individual in question.

Probably the reason we don’t discuss society-wide modification much (except in the context of huxly-esque dystopias) is that its proximity to eugenics makes it unpalatable to western society’s current ethics framework. But thinking in the longer term, I find it highly unlikely that future societies wouldn’t utilize this tool given the potential advantages it offers, especially in terms of group cohesion. This of course comes with the caveat that modeling the large scale implications of a small genetic change would be next to impossible. There would likely have to be a lot of trial and error, with some of the errors being quite horrific.

So in this context, I was thinking about what we could potentially modify that would have an out-sized impact on society with relatively little change on humans’ current genetic makeup. And the answer that seemed the most interesting is to modify the rate at which men are born relative to women. What would a society with far fewer men than women look like? As far as I can tell, there is very little data to go on (maybe USSR after ww2?). There are examples where there are fewer women than men (ex china), but I’ve struggled to find the opposite. Also, most scientific literature about “gender imbalances” is mostly just ideological fluff.

So anyway, the question I guess is what does this look like, and does it actually lead to a more stable/cohesive society.

Arguments in favor:

  • Less sexually frustrated young men who tend to get violent
  • Higher general agreeableness, since women tend to score higher on this personality trait

Arguments against:

  • Susceptibility to guilt based religious ideologies

-Susceptibility to military conquest by external groups with more balanced gender rations assuming this isn’t implemented everywhere.

Edit: Formatting

If we are thinking of crazy evopsych hacking, why don't we just make women ever so slightly less hypergamous/choosy and less neurotic and ever so slightly more horny?

I think significantly less men would be incels. Just do it enough that men don't entirely lose their drive to build and make things to impress hot chicks (progress civilization), but rather just ease the pressure just a little so it isn't straight up impossible like it is nowadays.

why don't we just make women ever so ...slightly more horny?

Oh, you mean "riding the cock carousel" and other such charming descriptions?

Men don't want women to be horny. Let me refine that: men don't want women to be horny except for them in one particular instance, and not other men. Men don't want women to dump them, but neither do they want women to be clingy when the man wants to dump her.

There's a long tradition of poetry along the lines "sleep with me; if you don't, you're a frigid bitch who hates men and loves to make them suffer and if you do sleep with any man who asks you, you're a whore and a slut. Just sleep with me when I want, then go away when I'm tired of you".

Marvel's To His Coy Mistress: you don't wanna die a virgin, do you? Sleep with me!

Now therefore, while the youthful hue
Sits on thy skin like morning dew,
And while thy willing soul transpires
At every pore with instant fires,
Now let us sport us while we may,
And now, like amorous birds of prey,
Rather at once our time devour
Than languish in his slow-chapped power.

Even Donne got on the Bitch Ridin' The Cock Carousel wagon:

If thou find'st one, let me know,
Such a pilgrimage were sweet;
Yet do not, I would not go,
Though at next door we might meet;
Though she were true, when you met her,
And last, till you write your letter,
Yet she
Will be
False, ere I come, to two, or three.

The Sexual Revolution was supposed to be about "now women can be horny too, without blame or the double standard". What are the results? Unhappy men claiming they can't get a girlfriend and that women can have all the sex they want, and are all sleeping around with the alphas while not giving them the time of day.

I think you would have to do a lot of re-tooling of both the physical set-up and the mental attitudes; you'd need to have women getting aroused as easily and quickly as men do, and orgasming from the same sort of stimulation, and not so fertile as to make it risky that they'd easily get pregnant, who are willing to just have casual fun with any guy that asks, don't have emotional attachments from that casual sex, and are approachable by all.

Of course, once women start being approachable by all men and stop being hypergamous, then some men will complain about the whores and sluts who're willing to just hop into bed with any guy, no discrimination or standards. It's a double bind!