Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.
- 145
- 1
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm very hesitant to break out Paul verse by verse and ascribe an individual meaning to each line. Chapters and verses were only delineated many hundreds of years after Paul wrote. He also does not come from the same tradition of writing that we developed, where we write our thesis front and center, then write our supporting evidence, then follow with a conclusion. This can make it hard to understand what the point of any given passage is.
With that said, my reading of Romans chapters three and four would be: The first covenant that God made with Abraham never promised eternal life, theosis, etc. to those who followed it. It did lead to Salvation - out of the Covenant came Jesus - but it does not grant salvation. When people failed to follow the first covenant, they weren't failing to achieve their own salvation. Instead they were merely demonstrating that humankind is weak and sinful.
In your exegesis of Romans 4, it seems to me that you are generalizing things that Abraham did as part of his forming a covenant with God in Genesis 15, into general moral action. I disagree that Romans 4:13 contrasts Faith and the law as opposing each other, but rather Faith preceded the covenant. If you reread Genesis 15 you will see that Paul's referring to it in a very orderly fashion. First you have him quote Genesis 15:6 ("Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.") Then right after that verse in Genesis, God forms the covenant ("On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram.")
In Romans 4:18-25, Paul does generalize to the gentiles - because a huge part of his letter to the Romans is to argue that the gentiles do not need to join the old covenant to also join the new. A Christian's faith in Jesus is like Abraham's faith in God's promise - they both start a covenant. He is saying that Gentiles don't need to follow the old covenant to be justified because the old covenant never justified anyone. Unlike the new covenant, the old covenant never promised justification.
I also think we might not have the same terminology when we talk about Righteousness, Salvation, Justification. Sometimes Catholics and Protestants disagree about how much we are disagreeing because we just don't use the same words to talk about the same things. To be clear about the terminology I am using here are some definitions:
Justification - A formative process in which Christians are made righteous over the course of their entire lives. It is a gift from God, unearned, provided by Jesus' death on the cross to all who accept that He is Lord. This is something that can be lost or stalled and then picked up again. It is comparable to being born. It is unearned gift, but there are certain things you can do that hasten your (spiritual or physical) death.
Protestants often define justification as "To be declared righteousness," in a one time event. This dramatically changes how we read any Bible verse with the word "Justification" in it. Instead, Catholics would use the word "Salvation" in places where Protestants commonly use "Justification."
Salvation - Actually getting to Heaven. Not the same thing as Justification.
Righteousness - Correct behavior. Jesus imparts (not imputes) righteousness to us.
In the Catholic view, faith is an unmerited gift from God. Without God providing the grace of faith, there is no human effort that will grant a person faith. Faith leads to Justification, in which Christians become righteous over the course of their lives. At the end of our lives, we reach Salvation through this process of Justification, which we did nothing to earn but do need to participate in lest we lose it anyways.
This is a good video that examines the differences (an similarities) between what Catholics and Protestants believe on Justification.
I know there's nothing special about verses, I was just using them to go through the text in detail. The text contains detail; you can't just ignore that (but of course, the overall scope and arguments are also vital).
I'm assuming you're treating the covenant referred to here as roughly the same as the Mosaic one? That one definitely does promise life: "the one who does these things shall live by them," which Paul quotes in Galatians.
As to faith, etc: I didn't really address your position, mostly just coffee_enjoyer's, before. Let's get to yours.
As Paul does, in verses 23-25, and elsewhere. If you think there's a meaningful difference, point out where, and we can work from there.
Perhaps you may not think that Romans 4:13 does so, but I don't see how you could read 4:14 as not presenting a contrast/opposition of sorts. Read in context.
I think I've shown sufficiently that it does promise life, at least, above. Yes, I agree that obligations upon gentiles are a part of what's going on here. But they are not the primary object in focus. Rather, it's how the (yes, primarily jewish) law relates to our righteousness before God in general, and in so doing he sets it up as dependent upon faith, where faith is understood in a sense of trusting, rather than on something lawlike.
No, Paul's point is not that in both a covenant is begun. Never does he refer to the formation of the covenant as such. Further, that doesn't comport with the meaning of the passage, as the point (of some parts) is precisely that the gentiles don't need to be circumcised, whereas what you are saying would make the argument fail: they'd begin not needing to be circumcised, but then they'd need to get circumcised after (plausibly).
I am well aware that there are terminological differences.
The Protestant interpretations are closer to the Pauline ones, though sometimes more technical.
But okay, let's assume that the Catholic use of those terms, as defined here, is the same as the Pauline ones, for now, and see where things break down.
First: righteousness. You say:
In this passage, righteousness is counted to Abraham (seen repeatedly, should be uncontroversial). The righteousness counted here cannot be merely understood to be an instance of correct behavior. Rather, he's being counted righteous more holistically—as a whole person, as this is understood to constitute his righteousness in general. This faith makes Abraham righteous, not merely righteous in respect of his faith. This can be seen in the way that this is treated in the passage as the source of righteousness in general, in how the promise is attached, and in the previous context of the legal penalties, where it was talking about the relation of the law as a whole to a person, not the effect of any singular provision. Further, while this doesn't explicitly talk about imputed righteousness in the particular sense of Christ's work (at least, no more clearly than "received by the faith in 3:25), it is clearly talking about imputation of some variety ("it was counted to him as righteousness") and in verses 6-8, it talks about righteousness by means of the non-imputation of sin, basically.
Sure, though I'd also be willing to use that to refer to the enter process holistically, or in other important steps.
Yeah, sorry, that's just not what Paul's talking about here. Romans 4:2-3 connects justification to being counted righteous. This whole process is about how Abraham was justified, not his becoming righteous with this as one step of a broader whole (note: an aorist in 4:2, meaning a simple past action. This means Abraham believing probably acts as a discrete instance of justification, not one step in a broader process of justification). Further, the focus of this passage is on righteousness as reckoned by God, both as seen in the quotation, and in the opposition of righteousness to wrath, not as talking about our being made righteous. The law is presented as inadequate because it works condemnation, not for the reason of it failing to produce any good works.
Protestants rather understand the term in this passage to be following its legal usage (especially that used in the septuagint): to be talking about acquital or vindication, and this explains the passage far more potently.
The word has varied usage, but being counted righteous works well in this passage.
I am aware.
I've made an effort here, but if I remember correctly, Chemnitz' examination of the council of Trent, in the section on justification, does a pretty good job of showing why the protestant understanding of justification is correct, and the catholic one fails, and he does this in such a way that this is not merely a terminological dispute.
Do you believe that Jews who followed the Law went to Heaven without Jesus's death, and in fact would have made it to Heaven without Jesus' death? I never heard that position before, but Paul's quote in Galatians does not support it. Galatians 3:11-12: "Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”" The full quote is clear, the law is based on "living by" i.e. performing actions. It's not saying the law provides eternal life.
(I'm going to start using the Lattrimore translation, because I'm noticing a lot of theological language smuggled in when I switch between NRSV and NIV. Lattrimore was a secular Greek translator who is most famous for his excellent translation of the Iliad. He did become Episcopalian towards the end of his life, but this conversion was after he translated the New Testament. I think we're both trying to figure out the words as Paul wrote them, and short of studying Greek this is the best resource I can get.)
Let's go back to Romans. Paul starts Romans off with discussion of Pagan wickedness. Then he broadens it to discuss everyone's (even Jewish) sinfulness.
This doesn't sound like sole fide.
Then we have Romans 2:12-15 "For those who sinned outside the law will also perish outside the law: and those who sinned while within the law will be judged according to the law. For it is not those who listen to the law who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those who do what is in the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature what is in the law, they, without having the law, are their own law; and they display the work of the law engraved on their hearts;"
So from the beginning, Paul is referencing the Law as referred to Torah observance. Gentiles "do not have the Law", but "display the work of the law engraved on their hearts." Paul seems really concerned with telling Roman Jews that Gentiles are able to do good without being Jewish. Because they are Gentiles they aren't participating in the nation-building or ceremonial aspects of the Jewish law, but rather the natural law or the moral law.
Throughout this, Paul is admonishing the Jewish people in Rome to not boast. They are just as sinful as the Gentile populace.
Now we move to Romans 4. So that I am not accused of ignoring any detail, I will go through section by section and explain how it makes perfect sense from a Catholic view:
Abraham is the patriarch, the father of the Jewish people. Abraham cannot boast because he had no power in himself to justify himself. Instead, God reaches out to Abraham and (despite some shakiness on Abraham's part) Abraham responds with faith. It is Abraham's response that counts as righteousness. Abraham believing God would give him descendants was a good/just/righteous action - it counts as righteous. It doesn't count as neutral or evil.
God singling Abraham out is a huge grace that Abraham received. Abraham did not deserve God's offer of a covenant. It is Abraham's faith in God that was considered the righteous action.
Abraham was able to achieve one canonically righteous action (his faith in God's promise) before being circumcised. Therefore, the uncircumcised Gentiles can also consider Abraham their Father in Faith (see that this is contrasted to verse 1, Abraham as the forefather in the way of the flesh.) And the circumcised are also supposed to walk in faith just like Abraham.
God told Abraham that the his descendants would inherit before the Torah existed. Abraham's faith was righteous (not imputed righteousness, but unqualified righteous.) It cannot be that only those who follow the Law of Moses will inherit the world, because the law by itself does not justify. "The law causes anger." This ties back to Chapter 3 verse 20: "since through the law comes consciousness of sin." The law only reveals human weakness. No one was ever going to follow the Torah all the way to Heaven.
Description of Abraham's act of faith. Restatement that faith is a gift, an unearned grace. Restatement that Abraham is the father of all those who have faith as well as the father of Jews in flesh. There is a little bit of a comparison between God bringing life from Abraham and Sarah's dead bodies and God bringing spiritual life from the spiritually dead Gentiles, but Paul doesn't really elaborate there.
Abraham's faith was righteous. God made sure that this passage was included in Genesis so Paul could win this argument with the Romans that the uncircumcised can be saved. I see very clearly the Catholic view of God sending grace, Abraham accepting the grace, and then that action of accepting the grace counting as righteousness.
Abraham was dead when Paul wrote his letter, so whether he was justified or not would have happened in the past, not as something ongoing. But 4:2 is an ironic negation - Abraham wasn't justified because of his action. Also, the aorist simply states the fact that an action has happened. It gives no information on how long it took, or whether the results are still in effect. An aorist could mean that the action took years. But however long it took, it's over now because Abraham is dead.
All four volumes are $180, do you know which volume or page number you're thinking of?
Alister McGrath is a reputable Evangelical historian. His book on the history of justification - Iustitia Dei - is widely regarded as one of the most comprehensive treatments of the subject. McGrath writes, "[If] the nature of justification is to be defended, it is therefore necessary to investigate the possible existence of 'forerunners of the Reformation doctrines of justification...' [This approach] fail in relation to the specific question of the nature of justification and justifying righteousness... A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where not had ever existed, or ever been contemplated, before. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification - as opposed to its mode - must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological novum."
One of the foremost Evangelical scholars on the topic could not find a historical belief in Forensic Justification or the imputed righteousness of Christ. I know that many Protestants believe in a great apostasy. But I personally expect that those who lived closest to Paul's time and spoke Greek in the same cultural context would best understand what Paul's message is. And no one in the Patristic age read Romans and thought, "Forensic Justification."
For example, St. Clement of Rome who was bishop of Rome from 88 AD to 99 AD wrote, "Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works and not our words." (1 Clement 30) This is someone who lived in Rome and likely read the first edition of the letter Paul wrote. This is someone who knew Peter and Paul - Paul references Clement in Philippians 4:3. If Paul was arguing sole fide, why was Luther the first one to understand it?
Not at all. The law promised life were it kept. But no one keeps the law. For other similar quotes, see Deuteronomy 7:12, or 13:18, among others.
It's possible that I was misreading Galatians 3. But I'm not sure of that. Do you have reason to think the English idiom ("live by") carries over (I just checked: the greek prepositions used in the phrases translated "live by" are εκ (
from) and εν (in), for faith and the law, respecitively, so I think at least the first doesn't seem like it's analogous to the English usage you describe, though it's the second that matters. The Hebrew it's based on, it looks like translators seem to be doing it more per what I was suggesting.Yes, because you don't understand the protestant law/gospel distinction, which Romans fits into fairly easily. Paul's talking in Romans 2 about justification by the law, then in Romans 3-4, he talks about our inability to keep it and how we are justified instead.
I agree with what you say of Romans 2 subsequently.
Your reading of Romans 4:1-5
This seemed plausible generally. The place where you'd have the greatest difficulty in just those 5 verses is the opposition to it being as a repayment or due at the end of your selection there.
Your reading of Romans 6-12
I'll note that you don't bring up the David quote here at all (verses 6-8). But I think it's pretty important, and shows that the righteousness talked about here is probably not an inherent righteousness.
I don't think this is compelling. The passage seems to argue for a state of righteousness, not merely a single righteous action. This can be seen a little in the passage (like, it fits well with the reference to the blessedness described in the psalm, as connected in verse 9), but also elsewhere, as the overall topic's closer to how we can be righteous, not how can we perform a single righteous action.
Further, arguing that the gentiles would be able to perform one canonically righteous action is anadequate to what Paul is trying to do.
I'll agree with your reading of 4:13-21.
Your reading of 22-25
But the righteousness of faith is adequate for our righteousness, not merely the beginning of our righteousness.
Correct. But it does mean (at least, in the case of a finite verb, as here) that it's being viewed as a single action. It's saying Abraham was justified by faith, not that he was being justified, or began a process of justification, or something.
I'd brought this up in response to the differing definitions of justification, to argue that justify here was not a processy thing that took place over a whole life—rather, when Abraham believed God, it was credited to him as righteousness. See also how in 5:1 there's an aorist participle (note: aorists don't have quite the same meaning in particples vs finite verbs), where it's talking about us having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. I suppose you'd have to read this as saying that we have been justified by faith, and this, being the first step, puts us at peace with God, but we will still be justified more.
Just to check—you don't think that Abraham was justified solely by faith, right?
Oh, yes, sorry, I didn't think; I don't mean to impose any burden of buying anything. It's volume 1, pages 457-544 in the edition I have before me. If you can read Latin, it's all available free online, of course.
McGrath
I am aware that what the Reformers were teaching was not to be found in the medieval consensus, nor (I think) in those like Wycliffe or Hus that are often pointed to.
I agree that the teaching was virtually unknown throughout much of church history. The reformers cited almost exclusively Bernard of Clairvaux, if they wanted someone to back them up on this teaching, if I remember correctly. (Though I'd have to look back and see how compatible it is with the Theologia Germanica that Luther republished).
It's not weird to me that something like this was lost early in the church; this was also pretty true of the anti-Pelagian things that Augustine wrote, that are now widely accepted. McGrath, in the same work, describes the patristic teaching on justification as "inchoate."
Funny you bring up Clement, though.
To quote the same letter (32:4):
Huh.
So evidently, those two things must go together in some way.
I submit to you that the passage that you cited is not talking about justification in the relevant sense (check the context) while this one is. The passage you cited can be read in exactly the same ways that protestants read James.
But I think the passage of Clement I cited is even more clearly in line with the protestants in terms of the opposition to it being inherent righteousness than Paul is, as it mentions piety among the things by which we are not justified.
Trying to nail you down here, if someone followed the law perfectly absent Jesus' death on the cross, however impossible that in itself might be, would that person have made it to Heaven?
If so, I think I understand Protestant's objections to Catholic's veneration of Mary better. Catholics believe Jesus' death on the cross redeems us because Jesus is God. But do Protestants believe His death redeems us because He was sinless (and His divinity was required for Him to be sinless, but it was the sinlessness itself that made redemption possible?)
I think James was pretty clear:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by his actions, when he offered up Isaac, his son, on the sacrificial altar? You see that his faith worked with his actions and through his actions his faith was made a thing complete, and so the scripture was fulfilled which says: Abraham believed God, and it was counted as righteousness in him, and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by his acts and not by faith alone."
But the binding of Isaac happened well after Abraham's circumcision, after Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness. I think you are incorrect about Abraham becoming justified instantaneously by faith, whatever tenses you might find in Paul.
Yes, Paul seems to disagree with James, and Clement with Clement. But we know that all must go together. Somehow these quotes and concepts didn't seem contradictory to the early Church. No Catholic today would claim that we are justified of ourselves or that we are justified absent an act of divine condescension.
I see three possible ways to reconcile James with Paul and Clement with Clement: (and I'm borrowing from Matthew J. Thomas here)
One proposal is that the difference is a matter of timing: while Paul is speaking about the initial reception of justifying grace apart from works, James is talking about the verdict of final justification at the last day, for which works as evidence of faith are essential.
Another possibility is that the difference is the kind of works under discussion: while Paul denies that the Torah’s observances can be made a requirement for justification, it is less clear that the good works prescribed by James are also a target of Paul’s objections
A third possibility focuses on the nature of faith, which may be more notional in James (a faith such as the demons can have, cf. Jas 2:19), while Paul’s use of the term is more relational and entails fidelity as well (cf. ‘the obedience of faith’ in Rom 1:5, 16:26).
I think all three possibilities are compatible with the Catholic view. Which of these would be compatible with your view? If none, what is your view?
Tentatively, I'll say no, but only because of Adam's sin being imputed to them, and ignoring that, they would go to heaven.
I think the objections to Mary are more just outflows of the general principles against idolatry—I think we're both opposed to praying to, making images to, etc. of other deities. Given these actionsg as well as the emphasis on and devotion to Mary in general (That ratio in the rosary? Seriously?), that's seen by protestants as problematic.
We think that he had to be divine because that's required to have a sacrifice of adequate worth, to pay for us all. His sinlessness was of course also necessary, but that doesn't require divinity—we'll all be sinless post-death.
Okay, that fits with what I thought you'd think. The problem I have with that is that Paul seems to think that, given that we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God, which seems a little weird if there's more justification to go, and what there is so far is inadequate.
Yeah, sorry about bringing up tenses. But I do think that Abraham must have been justified instantaneously by faith: it's treating it as something self-contained, that it was counted as righteousness, for believing God. Further, 5:1 states that having been justified by faith (that is, as something having happened in the past), we have peace with God.
Not quite any of those. I'll go through the issues I see with each of these, and present what I think is correct.
Paul is not talking about the initial reception of justifying grace. His concern and overall frame throughout much of Romans is how we are accepted before God. In this passage, that's what he's talking about, not an initial thing—our being accepted and at peace with God as a whole. It is saying that we have peace with God upon having justifying faith, and is saying that circumcision is not needed generally, not just that it's not needed after salvation. I don't think that's reading James right oither, but showing that would take more effort than I'm ready to engage in at this moment.
This can't be Paul's point, or Romans 4:6-8 would make no sense in the argument. Further, other passages make it clear that we're talking about the old covenantal law as a whole, not merely the ceremonial parts.
This isn't quite right. The faith described in Romans is explained what it consists in—trust—in the latter portion of Romans 4, and this is also seen in the use of the verb, not just the noun, as the verb is clear that it's believing, not being trustworthy, where the noun would not be.
What then do I think instead? The third point is not far off, especially in its account of James' faith, while Paul's includes trust.
There's also the additional factor of justification differing in meaning from place to place. In the case of Paul, he's using it to talk about our justification before God in the passager we've seen, and James probably as justification before the community of believers. (In both of these cases, but I don't think everywhere in the new testament—I don't remember—they are using it to talk about those being accepted/counted as righteous in a court-like setting.)
Does that make sense?
I think you are referencing Romans 5:1 for this. "Justified therefore through faith, let us keep peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have got by faith access to that grace in which we stand, and let us exult in the hope of the glory of God."
It seems to be saying, with our initial justification caused by faith (in opposite to circumcision) let us act properly and keep peace with God through the grace Jesus has gained for us.
But looking around, it looks like the "Let us" translation is based on some Greek manuscripts, while other Greek manuscripts do not have it as an exhortations. The Vulgate has "iustificati igitur ex fide pacem habeamus ad Deum per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum," which sounds more like an exhortation. Could this be the root of our confusion? The subjunctive seems to be attested to earlier in manuscripts, but both are widespread in the early Church. The official Roman translation used Let Us, and that undoubtedly influenced theology for millennia.
In the absence of knowing what Paul actually wrote here, may I suggest that we both avoid using Romans 5:1 to argue for or against our positions?
Are you still referring specifically to Romans 4:2? Is the Aorist in 4:2 or 4:3? Because Romans 4:2 says, "If Abraham was justified because of his actions, he has reason for glorying; but not before God, since what does the scripture say?" Paul is saying that Abraham was Not justified because he had some innate awesomeness. It doesn't really matter what tense was used when Paul is ironically saying that something Didn't happen that way.
I disagree that the language Paul uses makes the claim that Abraham was justified in a single instant, and this seems to be the basis of your arguments against the Faith/Works explanations that I hold.
Short of us both being ancient Greek scholars I don't know how much more productive our conversation can become. We can both start to appeal to authority, but I think our fundamental difference lies in the specificity of a language that I don't speak (and I'm not sure but I don't think you do either.) Which is disappointing, because I usually mock those who think that the Bible is impossible to understand because it's been a game of telephone/translated too many times.
Ah, I wasn't aware of the other variation of Romans 5:1.
I was referring to aorist in 4:2, but wasn't arguing from 4:2 alone, interpreting 4:3 to be talking about Abraham's justification by faith.
Perhaps that's more of the key to what I've been saying.
Logically speaking, it seems like 4:3 is an explanation of 4:2—this is saying something about where Abraham's justification actually consists in.
I think my point cared more about features of the argument than the tenses, just tenses were slightly easier to gesture at.
So let's try not addressing that, and looking at it argumentatively instead.
In Paul's usage in this passage, justification refers to the same thing as what is seen in 4:3: counting as righteous. This does not necessarily involve imputation of another's righteousness (though I think it does here), but is just saying that when Paul says "justify" in at least some of the places in Romans 3-4, what he means is be accepted as righteous.
This is clear from the broader context: Romans 3: talking about the guilt of all (See especially v. 19-20. Note that this is not dependent upon it being the Mosaic law given Romans 2 among other passages.) This is where the law is pointed out to have failed: in that it administers blame. Romans 1-2 touch on the same themes: judgment and our acceptance before God. Given Romans 5:1, it seems like most of Romans 4 is talking about justification by faith. But Romans 4 is talking about being counted as righteous. Romans 4:3 seems to be giving a reason for why Abraham cannot be justified by works with respect to God, as described in Romans 4:2.
Then, the talk of being counted righteous by faith, described in Romans 4, seems like a singular event (or at least, due to a singular event), not lifelong.
This can be seen in the references to Abraham being counted as righteous before circumcision. In verses 6-8, it discusses the forgiveness of sins, which in verse 9 it connects to Abraham's righteousness (and of course, this is also connected by the lead-in). This is not something gradual.
You are correct that this doesn't show anything instantaneous (to be clear, the tenses don't either), but it does seem to show that Paul considers Abraham to have been justified before being circumcised, and this because "his faith was counted as righteousness," and so it's then reasonable to conclude that having righteousness counted to you in whatever sense Paul is talking about here suffices to show that one has been justified.
The "having been justified" in 5:1 reads like this can also be applied to us, that we can speak of our having been justified in the past.
Yes, I get that some of this goes beyond treating the passage as an unorganized list of propositions and thinks he has purposes behind what he's saying; I think that's warranted and the proper way to read scripture.
I don't speak it, but I can read ancient greek at an acceptable level, depending on what your standards for acceptance are.
Romans 4:3 doesn't say Abraham was justified as a one time thing, it just says that Abraham believed God and this was counted as righteousness. I really don't think you can apply the definiteness of the aorist in 4:2 to the sentiment of 4:3. For example, if I said, "If I was an elephant I would always remember everything. I remember my kid's birthday." I'm saying: I do forget things, I'm not an elephant, but I do remember my kid's birthday. One thing (my kid's birthday) can be tallied into the list of things I remember, but I don't remember everything on account of me not being an elephant. Abraham is not justified (in a single action) an account of him being perfect in himself, but he did do an action that is counted as righteous/just.
If Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 justified him entirely, why didn't his act of faith in Genesis 12:4 do so? For as Hebrew's 11:8 says, "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." So Abraham obeyed God by faith, did not get justified as a single one time action, he believed God later on and was justified then and for always? What was the distinction?
I understand that the words Justification and Righteousness are the same root words in the Greek, just translated into English in whatever word is most intelligible. But just like I used the same word "remember" in both sentences in the Elephant example, someone might use the same word ironically in two different sentences to contrast the two (always remember in the first sentence, simple remember in the second, like aorist justify in the first verse, not-aorist righteous in the second.)
Regarding verses 6-8, of course Catholics believe in the forgiveness of sins after repentance. But having sins forgiven does not itself make someone righteous forever afterwards.
For example, Paul is quoting Psalm 32. In Psalm 32, David is repenting of the sins he committed in 2 Samuel 11, murder and adultery. But before David sinned, God called David, "a man after his own heart." So we have a just man, who sins, then repents and is forgiven.
Verse 9 connects the forgiveness of sins with Abraham's state of Circumcision. Abraham was able to have one righteous action while uncircumcised. "The faith of Abraham was counted as righteousness."
Yes, I agree that we shouldn't treat the passage as an unorganized list of propositions. That was my position from the first comment. The purpose of the whole letter is that Abraham is our father in faith and Gentiles do not need to be circumcised to participate in faith and receive Justification from Jesus.
You are trying to read between the lines to come up with a meaning that this passage does not readily appear to have. You are arguing that justification is a one time deal by applying the tense of one sentence to the tense of the subsequent and tying different verses together from different parts of the letter.
St. Paul is refuting the Judaizers, who believed that the Law, an impersonal entity, had the power to give life. The Judiazers were wrong. As Galations 3:21 says, "if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law." (Another verse that supports that the Torah was insufficient to provide salvation by itself.)
The Judaizers in Rome believed rather that one need only obey the law externally, which would obligate God to repay them with eternal life, as an employer pays a worker his wage (Romans 4:4). Arguing against this, St. Paul teaches us we must approach God on a personal level, with faith and sincere contrition for our sins. God will, in turn, graciously forgive us (Psalm 32), infuse us with supernatural virtues, and credit them to our account as righteousness.
Faith is the foundation and the root of all justification. Without faith, no works will justify. However, this does not preclude the possibility that God might reckon the believer's faith to him as righteousness again at some other point in his life. Just looking at Abraham we see justification in Genesis 12:4, Genesis 15:6, Genesis 22. There are other virtues, such as Hope and Charity, which God might credit to a believer's account as well, after that first act of justification through Faith has been accomplished.
Do you believe that the intention of Paul in these verses was to argue against a group of people who believed Justification was a continuous process? Or was Paul's intention in these verses to argue against a group of people who believed Gentiles needed to be circumcised in order to participate in the sacrifice of Jesus? I think you would acknowledge the latter, but say that the words Paul is using implies that he believes Justification was a one-time event. If that is the case, I think I'm reading the purpose of the passage as a whole.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Some points of clarification: I would agree that works are necessary. I would perhaps even be willing to agree that the merits of our works are imputed to us (not certain, though, because of the one parable). What I am not willing to assent to is that our works are the basis of our justification; that is, that we can be accepted before God because of the works that we have done. Those are always mixed with sin and lacking the spotlessness needed for conformity to God's law.
So yes, to your both-and, both are necessary.
I will point out one difference from your comparison. Unlike the example you give about love and commitment, Paul specifically contrasts faith against works in justification. This makes what you are presenting not as readily applicable. You have no mention of "love apart from commitment" or other such contrasts, which, I would think, would heavily affect how you would read such a thing. (With the caveat that I mostly conceded to the other interlocutors that "faith apart from works" is insufficient to prove the protestant point; you need to understand Romans or the other books more thoroughly to do that, because that in itself does not tell you what faith or works mean in this context).
I think I also think it not unlikely that James is replying to misinterpretations of Paul; I just disagree as to what those are.
I think what Peter is referring to, by the context that follows, "take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability," is speaking of antinomianism, that is, saying that we don't need to concern ourselves with doing good and a reformed life whatsoever, that being free from the law we can do anything. Perhaps 1 Corinthians is relevant.
Justification by faith can be found elsewhere, most prominently in John.
John 3:14-15: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
3:18: "whoever believes is not condemened…"
5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
6:40: "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
6:47: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life."
11:25-26: "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”"
20:31: "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
So at the very least, believing (or however you'd prefer to translate pisteuo) is closely connected to salvation. Does this have the explicit "and it's not by works" here? Not except by implication by omission.
I do not think Peter's warning means that we should ignore Paul, it just means we should read him carefully, and watch out for misinterpretations leading to spiritual danger, like antinomianism.
While Jesus is of course of more importance than Paul, they should both be read in light of the other. It would be foolish not to attempt to use the words of his followers, who are speaking by the same Holy Spirit, to aid in understanding him, when needed.
It seems also you may have missed where the gospels describe Jesus as hard to understand, and—unlike Paul—deliberately so.
And it makes sense to bring up works. Those who are condemned are condemned for their works. I'd contest the claim that this is everywhere, though. I cited John 5:24 above, for example, and that seems like it may be a counterexample. I'm sure there are more.
I do not think this is relevant; of course our faith is something that grows, and yes, Jesus says that it can be small. When Jesus speaks of faith like a mustard seed, this is not to denigrate faith, rather he extols its power.
While this is how it may appear, I do not think this is a good encapsulation of the concerns of the Reformers; they cared seriously about the Christian life. You see them as promoters of lightness and not taking things seriously, when really it was quite the opposite. They preferred a strict imposition of the law, not the medieval minimalistic one, where it was not actually all that hard to follow the commandments and avoid sin (which is not to say we do), and only the monks follow the evangelical counsels and perfections and truly seek a perfect, rather than passable life—no, they preferred one with a rigid law, where we are commanded to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength (and our neighbor as ourselves) and the slightest deviation from that will not be tolerated, is utterly damning, a law where our every action, even the best, is stained with sin and so utterly damnable. We are hopeless before the law, even regenerate.
It is in this framework that you see the radiance of justification by faith—in this darkness, this hopelessness of our sin and failure and gloom, we have been saved by Christ, who gave himself for us, and we can do nothing but trust in him. We cannot have our standing before God consist in our works, because we are yet imperfect, and so our works cannot be trusted; they remain sinful, except for the acceptance of them by God in Jesus Christ and the non-imputation of the sin we commit in the midst of performing them.
So you have it precisely backwards. It whs the protestants who had their eyes wholly on the goal: perfection. Who sought it eagerly, failed, and despaired. And who were comforted by the grace in Jesus Christ and the forgiveness found within, and our own acceptance based on his own righteousness who achieved that goal—worthy is he, and he alone. While it was the papists, the keepers of the old tradition, who promoted laxity and a lesser extent of the law, who thought that we could serve God well enough to pay for some penalty with satisfactions and purgatory, and who would make our justification, our standing before God, dependent, in some measure, upon our own idiot hopeless selves.
Justification by faith is not the driving force behind protestant soteriology. It is rather the resolution to the actual core concern: our inadequacy before God's law. It is Isaiah 6 that is its heart.
Now to actually address what you were saying.
I'm not quite convinced that your list of requirements perfectly matches the Protestant ones—I would think it's closer to just trust in Christ, and desire for a changed life, etc. are not things upon which our salvation is, strictly speaking, depending, though they will always accompany it in all Christians. (Also, side note: if you're talking about bare minimum, perfect contrition isn't quite the bare minimum for you, as, after looking it up, it looks like imperfect contrition+confession would do? Or does that produce perfect contrition?)
And Protestantism's point is that those saints are still deeply indebted to God, even if we look only at them post-conversion, only at their best actions, and so even their best cannot be depended upon. Of course, protestants do respect the good wrought in pious Christians, but it is ultimately too incomplete in this life to stand before God's judgment.
Protestants were not quite claiming that Catholics were teaching that everyone would have to be teaching that everyone would have to be a heroic saint. It was rather that with the teaching of justification and our standing before God consisting on inherent or imparted rather than imputed righteousness, Catholics should be (even if they are not) teaching that we should have to be a heroic saint, more of a heroic saint than any yet seen.
Lutherans kept private confession, I believe, though they did not ascribe to it the same powers, preferring to vest in them instead in faith and baptism.
My answer is just that justification by faith is not of such great importance that the deeply lacking and imperfect understandings of justification found throughout history would constitute apostasy, and that some understanding of the gospel can be had without it, even if not the fulness.
Edit: saw after I posted, you deleted. Why?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link