This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Couldn't agree more.
What is off handedly dismissed as "domestic female labor" is really "the construction and maintenance of basic pro-social behavior patterns that enable society to function."
Outsourcing those duties to the state has been a disaster. This is as obvious a fact as one can summon. The state does not care about you and never has. The level of involvement and personal sacrifice necessary for humans to raise their young is bananas. No other mammal comes close. It requires an emotional bond that is nearly transcendent. Some of us would call this a "holy" connection and duty.
But others would say "just add water" to make the family.
There's definitely something to this. It's just hard to pin down what exactly went wrong. It feels to me like one of those "seeing like a state" things, where the traditional local system gets regulated into something that almost works, but it's a disaster.
Take the cake example. We never really needed cake. If it's really such a burden to bake a cake, you could simply... not bake it, and be fine (or even healthier, if you're eating too many sweets).
What we do need though, is social ties with our community. And one way to do that is to have a party, where you invite all the neighbors over to have cake with you, because a cake was this big special treat and you have to eat it when it's fresh. Maybe you also borrow a cup of sugar or something from them to help make it. And then maybe they reciprocate by inviting you over for cake next week, or something. This might look completely frivolus, like it's just housewives wasting time gossiping and eating sweets (and uh, sometimes it is just that...) but it also means you've got people to help with something more serious. Or just, you know, real people to socialize with on an equal basis, instead of passively consuming content from famous people. Apparently this kind of banqueting the yields has been a common part of human society since forever. And now, by making everyone more self-sufficient, we've lost that kind of social capital. Nobody is going to come over for a cake party if they can buy themselves a betty crocker cake for cheap and make it while they watch TV, or door-dash themselves a fancy bakery cake.
More options
Context Copy link
?? I think we're agreeing too! I'm one of those 'call it holy' connection and duty people.
Inadvertently dismantling the mother's irreplaceable role and creating this cargo cult where we all gesticulate wildly at how important it is to be a good mother has, as you said, been a disaster
Yeah I'm not trying to argue with you. Just talking to myself really, trying to flesh out different angles on what exactly happened there.
I guess the two different angles I see are "it was bad for women, because they lost their sense of purpose and now they're just bored, which is a very real psychological problem" vs "it was bad for everyone, because they were doing a lot of less-visible work in between those household chores, and we've only automated the most obvious stuff while the more subtle social work is no longer getting done by anyone."
The origin of the word 'trivia' seems obvious once you know it, there was a place in Rome where three big main roads met (tri via's) and the women would meet up to do their washing, get the news, and gossip. The foundation of the whole Western world
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link