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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   1577 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for November 5, 2025

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

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I am curious about something:

Is there some kind of unique wisdom that can only be attained through romantic relationships?

Cassandra complex

You can work your way backwards from here if you'd like the history.

While working with my therapist, I've provided her with the emails and chat logs between my wife and the scammers. I've also provided her with recent text chats between my wife and I. There was a period in 2011 where my wife's behavior seemed similar to now, I was able to find emails between my wife and my mother that provided some insight into her mental state at that time. I also recently found a letter / log my wife wrote in 2011, I hadn't realized how bad things were then.

Based on this and talking to me for ~8 hours or so she's very confident that my wife has BPD.

I've read Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder and saw alot of my wife and our interactions in the text.

I'm reading Stop Walking on Eggshells now.

Though I now have a better understanding of the dynamics and my role in it, this knowledge is not as useful / helpful as I would like. I feel like I'm watching someone drown while they insist they're swimming. I may have preferred the ignorance. Understanding exactly what's happening, why it's happening, and being powerless to intervene is uniquely frustrating. I've been struggling to give this over to God.

'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all.

I wish I had a picture of my therapists face when I asked her if the sons of BPD mothers marry BPD women. 😑

My wife has an attorney, finally. We've a 4 party conference tomorrow.

Much respect for working hard in a difficult situation, and good luck for tomorrow.

One word of caution: be careful relying on your therapist’s judgment about external individuals. By the nature of the interaction she gets the evidence you select for her and is predisposed to see things your way, so remember to account for that.

Thanks.

The 4 party conference did not go well. We're in court on motions next week.

I’m sorry to hear it.

I wanted to discuss this article and what it misses.

The core thesis of the article is this:

It’s actually really simple to get jacked. That’s not to say it’s easy- just that the complexity of the challenge is trivial, requiring only time and energy to succeed.

Think of getting jacked as something like this formula: GettingJacked = TIME * (.6X + .3Y + .1Z) X is your adherence to primary concepts, y is your adherence to secondary concepts, and z is your adherence to tertiary concepts. Primary and secondary concepts are a collection of just a handful of relatively simple ideas that require little financial investment. If you just focused on these, you would find getting jacked to be relatively straightforward. But tertiary concepts, predominantly supplements, are innumerable, complex, and require tons of money.

His primary concepts are progressive overload, training to (near) failure, eating enough protein, and cutting a low body fat. His secondary concepts are Compound lifts, optimal set numbers, and following a lifting program. The tertiary ones are essentially everything else, calling out trends or minor issues.

I think the article itself is kind of confused, why is following a lifting program a secondary concept but going to a class or working with a trainer is a tertiary one? But those are minor quibbles.

The real term in the equation I want to talk about is TIME. It's the unexamined assumption underlying the whole article, and a lot of "common sense" lifting/workout advice you see online. I want to examine that unexamined assumption.

Time as the author looks at is really combined with the word "adherence" used later, so it's something like "time adhering to a plan/program." Adherence is almost never 100%, even professional athletes don't always do every written rep of every written set in every written workout they planned across a multi-month program. Things happen. 70-95% program adherence is pretty typical informally for people who say they "completed" a program block. Anything over 60% adherence is pretty much "doing" the workout plan.

My learned friend in argument @sapph (no o) talked here about this comment discussing the idea that life is about doing 100 things every day that you don't want to do. Sapph says:

I have no idea why ideas like "Life is about doing 100 things every single day that you don’t want to do." became so popular in the culture. Of course people don't always follow the advice but people most do accept that success is largely about enduring hardship...There is a logic to all of this but other points of view used to be more common. In Rock Climbing you still see people talking about the importance of "being psyched". Being excited and energized, having fun. Its a lot easier to put in the time if you don't actually need to expend much effort. No one thinks it wont hurt sometimes. You are gonna fall and your fingers will bleed. But its just a completely different way of relating to your goals. The most important thing is to stay psyched.

And that's my jumping off point for what I think is missing: for the formula above for GettingJacked, or for any other similar goal, it's important not to treat time and adherence as black boxes, that just need to be brute forced through. ChaoticNeutral views the world in that way: lifting is simple, and maybe or probably unpleasant, but you need to apply willpower to it so as to maximize time and adherence and thereby achieve the goal. At this point in my life, I can reasonably say I've been lifting for the better part of 15 years, and more and more I react against that style, instead choosing like Sapph to constantly chase a new thing I'm stoked about.

I don't seek to optimize my program around adherence to the xyz principles at all, but instead on maximizing the TIME I put in by choosing a workout I'm stoked about. For some time like Sapph that was rock climbing for me, lately it's been new sports like jiu jitsu and long distance bicycle rides. But often it's just a matter of picking a new lift, or a new program, or a new implement like a heavy kettlebell or landmine. Picking a new game for me always ends up looking like having four or five new ideas, and trying them all at once until I see which one sticks.

And while I'm not a competitor in any sport, I'm reasonably proud of the shape I'm in. More and more I notice my friends falling off, and I think a big part of it is that attitude that places fitness and athletics in that "100 things you don't like but have to do" category.

The irony that I think causes the disconnect is that for a certain mindset, what gets them stoked about a workout program is exactly the thought that they are following an optimal program, or the minimal effective dose.

But I think a lot of people get stuck on that simple-but-difficult formula, banging their head against the wall, because they think that the only way to solve the problem is to apply more willpower. There's a tendency to refuse to try other things, or pay for other things, out of a kind of ascetic sense that it isn't necessary. But that's wrongheaded: the thing that makes you stoked about working out is nearly always worth it. The value of being in shape is nearly inevitably higher than the cost, and if being stoked is what you need it is what you need.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. Maybe I'm weird in that I do enjoy working out in a reasonably-decent way, and most people don't, no matter what they try.

Time as the author looks at is really combined with the word "adherence" used later, so it's something like "time adhering to a plan/program."

I would say No to that inference. My interpretation of the article is:

"Time" in this particular article is the time adhering to those basic principles (primary, secondary, tertiary) and not to a particular program only. Like in your case, Time will be 15 years of following various programs. The consistency is in doing the doing properly, whether you do a 2 week program X, 5 week program Y, 4 month program / system Z, to A to W to AA to ZZ, etc.

Those "X weeks to jacked up" programs don't really work since the time element is short. But if you follow the same program multiple times (or different otherwise principled programs without repeating them), you are bound to have a good physique.

Sidenote:

This reminds me of Charles Poliquin athlete types (based on Braverman test which assesses which neurotransmitter dominant or deficient you are; out of dopamine, acetylcholine, serotonin, and GABA):

  1. Dopamine types get high intensity, frequent changes, and more novel exercises.
  2. GABA and Serotonin types thrive on steady, consistent routines and recover better with less variety.
  3. Acetylcholine types benefit from regular novelty and learning-based protocols.

That is also why it is impossible to have a program which works with every kind of person!

side-side-note: IIRC, he originally created that on basis of 5 Chinese elements of fire (dopamine dominance), wood (acetylcholine), metal (GABA), water (serotonin), and Earth (balanced neurotransmitter profile).

I think I agree with you. I have no problem getting myself to run/bike/swim 8-12 hours a week, but I can't for the life of me get myself to go to the gym and lift. I had no problem doing core and calisthenics in high-school and college with the team, so it's totally and enjoyment thing.

There are alternative views.

Which is why I struggle when I hear of people that talk about how much they enjoy training, as, to me, it’s a sign of ineffective training. In total “no true Scotsman” form, enjoyable training can’t be effective, because effective training ISN’T enjoyable. If one is enjoying their training, they are not doing what training is meant to do: specifically, make one big and strong. Primarily because the body grows bigger and stronger in response to trauma. And yeah, science is telling us it’s not about microtears anymore (so I hear), but the fact remains that body grows bigger and stronger in response to a DEMAND placed upon it to grow bigger and stronger, and the only reason such a demand can be placed upon the body is for the body to experience discomfort and trauma. And, quite frankly, if you ENJOY discomfort and trauma, you are a literal masochist.

If you aim to be an elite athlete, that makes sense. If you aim to be a reasonably healthy person with good fitness, this will get you in trouble. If you are not enjoying something, you are spending your willpower every time you do it. And however determined you are, the willpower is a limited resource. For which a lot of things are competing every day. If you do not enjoy it, you will start finding excuses not to do it. You will start unconsciously arranging things so that you would do less of it. And you will feel shitty about it, because you would know the excuses are bullshit, but you will still do it because that's the nature of human brain. And feeling shitty about it would drive you to do even less of it, maybe get rid of it altogether - with a very good and strong reason of course! - so that you stop feeling shitty. That's not a good way to do things. I mean, you can power through it - but statistically, the majority of chances are you won't. I am a big proponent of "do what works for you, and fuck any third-party opinions", but my experience tells me things I don't enjoy doing are much less sustainable than things I do enjoy doing. Even if it means I'd sacrifice some reps and some lbs for it - it's better to have some consistent reps than end up with no reps at all because you grew depressed by the whole thing.

the willpower is a limited resource

This concept isn't holding up well to replication btw

Not that anyone really knows the answer, but studies (Carol Dweck?) have shown you can be psy-op'd or placebo'd into having more after it's been "depleted"

Personally, I think willpower and energy/tiredness are inversely correlated. Your willpower is worse at the end of the day because your brain is fatigued.

This concept isn't holding up well to replication btw

It certainly holds well enough for me.

you can be psy-op'd or placebo'd into having more after it's been "depleted"

Well, yes, but it's also true for many other things. Like, if you run until you exhausted and absolutely can't run anymore, if you get promised $1M or get attacked by a bear, you probably suddenly find it in yourself to run a little more. That doesn't mean however running doesn't get you tired, just that there are levels of tiredness.

I'm not claiming deep understanding of how exactly willpower works, I certainly don't have it. Just for me things that require a lot of it tend to be harder to maintain over the long time, and that seems to hold for other people too. If I hate something (exercise, diet, activity) I can push through it for a while, but the longer it goes, the more chance I'd find a way to stop doing it. On the other hand, if I feel good about doing it (note that doesn't mean it's easy - e.g. lifting or other exercise can be very tough and frustrating when doing it, or there were examples about martial arts - certainly when you're trying to get a complex technique or sparring with a tough opponent, you may experience a lot of frustration, but the whole package should still feel like you want to do it), I likely will keep doing it.

I think so too. Nocebo effects are powerful. If you believe your willpower will go down the drain after a short time, your mind will make that your reality.

Kinda like how people can be tricked into less agency and more passivity by reading all about how "there is no free will; everything is pre-determined". Well, if that were the case, why are you more of a layabout after having learned about the (likely flawed) concept...?

Fun is one thing, being stoked is another. See also type 1 2 and 3 fun.

I don't want to get into an argument with an absent third party about what he enjoys. But...he's obviously lying if he says he doesn't enjoy lifting weights. He might have found some way to influencer his way to some money out of lifting now, but he did a whole lot of lifting before ever reaching a point where he could make a dime, and even now it is probably just a hobby. If he didn't enjoy doing it at some level, he wouldn't do it. If he wasn't stoked about it, about reaching his lifting goals, he wouldn't do it. I've read his posts before, he often works out multiple times a day, and he's not a real competitor in any serious lifting series. He's doing this because he loves it, because he is stoked about it. He just likes bitching about how much he hates squats because he finds that kind of negativity to be more serious or whatever.

I'm stoked about jiu jitsu. That doesn't mean I'm constantly smiling doing jiu jitsu, or that it is always fun. There's a lot of times I'm not having fun. Six months ago it was even less fun. But I'm interested in reaching my goals, so that even when I'm cooked and my muscles are exhausted and I'm pinned under some gorilla who is trying to smother me, I'm still stoked to keep showing up, every day that I can, so that I can get better. The stoke is what gets me through the unpleasantness. If I just did unpleasant things for no reason, I'd be a literal masochist.

So like, yeah, I can picture a hypothetical person who just fucks around doing the "fun parts" without ever doing the unpleasant training parts. That's good advice for people like that.

But I know a lot of people who just don't work out at all. Those who keep starting a program they don't like working toward a goal they don't really care about, and give up after a few weeks every time. Those people need to try other advice than "do what sucks."

He might have found some way to influencer his way to some money out of lifting now, but he did a whole lot of lifting before ever reaching a point where he could make a dime

I'm pretty sure he doesn't make a penny from this.

If he didn't enjoy doing it at some level, he wouldn't do it. If he wasn't stoked about it, about reaching his lifting goals, he wouldn't do it.

I think he likes achieving his goals, but he doesn't like the process at all. I don't see why that should be impossible.

I don't really think it's possible to "enjoy" doing a program like deep water, even if you enjoy achieving your goals.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't make a penny from this.

I didn't think so, but I haven't been reading lifting blogs for a while, so I didn't want to make an assumption.

I think he likes achieving his goals, but he doesn't like the process at all. I don't see why that should be impossible.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at when I talk about being "stoked" on something. Being interested in it and finding meaning in it.

I don't really think it's possible to "enjoy" doing a program like deep water, even if you enjoy achieving your goals.

I would guess that the majority of people who have done deep water enjoyed lifting at some level, because almost none of them got anything useful out of it.

Maybe they were all cumming day and night

Unfortunately, when it comes to high rep squats, the COOM feeling from the pump is overwhelmed by the sensation of having been hit by a truck.

you are a literal masochist.

Ohh, that's why the people in the gym make those noises...

I think the real secret sauce of most problems of this sort is adherence or frankly discipline. The concepts behind the solutions are not difficult, they’re generally simple to the point of pre-school simple. Most people are simply undisciplined and end up relying on motivation to get things done and it simply does not work. If you want to reach a goal you have to work on it even when you’d rather do something else, when you’re craving something else. You don’t want to be fat, you need to eat less even if it means feeling hungry, eat healthy food even when you want pizza and wings. If you want to build muscle, getting into the gym is critical even (especially) when you’re not eager to do so.

Heater. Training isn't a cost to be minimized, it's a reward.

ETA: Have you seen Nils van der Poel's "How to Skate a 10k"? (https://www.howtoskate.se/) On the one hand, insane volumes of autistically dedicated training, that indeed would not be and were not intended to be sustainable for a lifetime, but within that context it's pretty salient how much he emphasizes making it enjoyable/compatible with enjoying the rest of life. Well worth a read.

You're right, but I think you're misunderstanding the original point of the article. It's not a formula for being reasonably in shape while maximizing enjoyment of your workouts for 15+ years, it's a formula for getting jacked. So, for that purpose alone, I think it's great. Obfuscation of additional complexity like enjoyment is by design because that should come later. I didn't start working out because I wanted an exciting activity to do, I wanted to stop being a long skinny stick. I think most people reading that article are in the same position. Enjoyment, understanding of health benefits and everything else came later. But following a dumb regiment that only required following a couple basic rules and consistency was very important in the beginning.

Yes, Aristotle talks about this. So does TLP, in his own way. Time, commitment, action, none of these are black boxes. They're habits, and the question of getting to them is a practical one of habit-formation, not just willing yourself into doing something.

Very much agree that maximizing enjoyment was the only thing that has gotten me to work out consistently. Plus, it's just better!!! Why force yourself when you can have fun?

November Goals

  1. Want to try the “Getting Things Done” productivity system, which basically involves writing out all my to-dos in a notebook, and either doing them immediately or schedule them for a future time.
  2. I want to work on becoming less anxious. GTD should help with this, but quitting porn, limiting internet time, and discursive meditation should all help with this.
  3. Second half of November and first part of December will be time off from serious exercise. I’d like to use this time to rebuild metabolically, but also to do some of my other hobbies that I have neglected (guitar, dancing, reading) for a little bit. Will probably still aim for about 30 minutes a day of exercise, but no serious training. Before this I'll be running my age in miles on my birthday (28 on 11/19) and racing an 8k XC at Franklin Park.
  4. Ask out this girl that I've been hanging out with from swim. Lots of mixed signals if she's interested or not, but only one way to know for sure....

So, my birthday is tomorrow. Any advice for fighting the "birthday blues"? Particularly around feelings of having wasted one's life, being an utter failure as a human being, and yet likely still having so many more (pointless, futile) years ahead to suffer through?

Happy Birthday!

We've been here before, and a year from now we'll see each other at the same point again.

I preferred the pre-edit version of this comment.

It was a lame joke and he's not going to do it anyways.

Then continue to be a Useless Tree. Basically, Chuang-tzu's Useless tree is chinese taoist parable about a huge, knotty, gnarled tree which no carpenter wanted to cut since its timber was spectacularly useless. Neither it was useful to make boats or furniture, nor for its fruits or leaves. Etc. While the useful trees were pruned, chopped, or harvested early, that tree's inability to be used for conventional purposes freed it from harm and enabled it to grow large and give shade to people and animals.

The main idea is to demonstrate perspective-driven relativism in values, in which what seems useless by one standard can be extremely useful from another perspective. IOW, the useful value in being "useless." If you feel (or the society makes you feel) useless from the (destructive) POV of usefulness to society, then this story should give you a different perspective. There is absolutely no need to conform to externally imposed standards of utility or productivity (which you may have internalized). On this birthday, it would be good thing to ponder about.

Regarding the future years, float with the current. You are not going to reach anywhere in the end. So, why to struggle? Don't suffer seriously. Have fun. Enjoy.

Regarding the future years, float with the current. You are not going to reach anywhere in the end

There is no fun. I enjoy nothing. My existence is suffering, whether I struggle or I "float with the current." My suffering will only end with my death. The only reason to keep living and not kill myself is if there's some purpose to be achieved in doing so.

So be it. Everybody's suffering (or whatever equivalent) is going to end by their respective deaths. Nothing new in that. But you can meanwhile change the way of suffering.

Since you are in for winters in a temperate/snowy place, why not suffer for 1 month (or 1 week minimum) in some sunny tropical place, just taking in the sun. No other goal, no need for tourism, no need to do something or achieve something. Complete free, unorganized, wandering. Pick a simple (cheap) B&B kind of place and go out all day - come back in night - sleep - repeat (go in to the markets, beach, anything).

Since you are in for winters in a temperate/snowy place, why not suffer for 1 month (or 1 week minimum) in some sunny tropical place, just taking in the sun. No other goal, no need for tourism, no need to do something or achieve something. Complete free, unorganized, wandering. Pick a simple (cheap) B&B kind of place and go out all day - come back in night - sleep - repeat (go in to the markets, beach, anything).

I get that most people on the motte are upper-class enough not to really understand what "poor" means, but what part of "I'm dirt poor" is not getting through?

I can't afford any of this. After rent, utilities, and food, I have maybe $100 left for everything else. Soap and hygiene. Cleaning products. Foil/plastic wrap/etc. Toilet paper. Facial tissue. Laundry. Clothing. Transportation.

(And it looks like I'll be screwed by 2026, if not earlier, because when the rent subsidy goes? I'm homeless.)

what part of "I'm dirt poor" is not getting through?

  1. because I didn't get that in the original post. I apologise if you feel hurt by the suggestion, but it was not my intention. My intention was just that you get sunlight and not stay in a snowy area.

  2. maybe you need to look at MMM or ERE to get help in how to navigate with poor income.

  3. What is your actual income level?

because I didn't get that in the original post.

Sure; I suppose it's just that I've posted here often enough about my situation — disabled, unemployable, living entirely off government handouts — that I took a certain familiarity with it for granted.

maybe you need to look at MMM or ERE to get help in how to navigate with poor income.

Not doable with Social Security's restrictions on savings: I'm not allowed to have total financial assets exceeding $2000.

What is your actual income level?

Not counting the rent subsidy or what Medicaid pays for my prescriptions, and just the money I (or rather, my representative payee) receive from the Federal and Alaskan governments? Approximately $1300/mo.

JLF does it at much lesser amount. You need to go through the ERE forums. $15k a year excluding rent and medicaid is not dirt poor, imo.

First, who or what is "JLF"? Second, everything I see on the ERE forums depends on being able to accumulate savings and/or investments. Third, you might be missing that I live in Alaska; everything is more expensive here (due to shipping costs), and so the cost of living is something like 17% higher than the national average.

More comments

A few questions:

  1. Do you live in a rural, suburban, or urban area?
  2. Do you have reasonable capability to transport yourself around your area? I.E., rural = vehicle, suburban = bike, urban = public transpo or your two feet?
  3. Do you hang out with people? If yes, small, medium, or large groups?

Do you live in a rural, suburban, or urban area?

Depends on how you draw the line between suburban or urban. Because I live in Anchorage, which is the largest city in Alaska, but which is also rather geographically spread out compared to towns in the Lower 48, and thus, by the density-based definition used by the federal government, this entire city — save the very core of downtown and a few blocks in our poorest neighborhood — are considered "suburban." Though, my area has also seen rising crime for the past couple of decades. Apparently, the local Walmart — where I get my prescriptions filled and do most of my grocery shopping — has the worst loss rates from shoplifting. Not the worst in the city, or the worst in the state, the worst period. It's probably going to close soon (I understand our state government is currently in talks with Walmart to try to prevent this), which will make my life harder.

So, probably best to go with "urban."

Do you have reasonable capability to transport yourself around your area? I.E., rural = vehicle, suburban = bike, urban = public transpo or your two feet?

I have a yearly bus pass (takes most of my PFD), and I walk when I can (but much of the winter that's not really doable), or take a cab when I must. Plus, now that summer's over and he's not out of town working on the retirement home, I can sometimes get rides from my Dad.

Do you hang out with people? If yes, small, medium, or large groups?

Does having dinner with my parents and one of my two brothers (who lives with them) a couple of times a month count? How about being invited to see a movie by a friend a couple times a year (when he needs a break from the house and five kids)?

Edit: I agree with Substantial Frivolity. Volunteering to the degree you are able would be a good road for you.

First of all, at this point you’re halfway through your birthday, so happy birthday, please continue to stick around. Also, it’s a little late to give you direct birthday activity suggestions, so I will aim at trying to make your next birthday an improvement over this one.

General Thoughts:

You have a friend. You have a relationship with your family. Those are good things. I think it would help you to get used to being around other people and doing things with them, in larger groups, more often. And to just slowly, over time, let yourself enjoy it to the extent that you are able.

I’ll be honest, I only know of one free way to pull that off, but if you can find a free way you like more, or one that is cheap enough for you to do two or three times a month, those will help as well. I bet there probably are other places that are free or nearly so, I just don’t personally know about them. All of what follows is translatable to other types of free/nearly free gathering locations.

Okay, here’s the part you might not like. The only free version of this that I personally know of is church.

You don’t want a megachurch, because you’ll feel even more like a face in the crowd. I would say you want to ID every church in a distance you think is achievable in winter time, then go check them all out. Find one that has about 75-100 people in the pews and where there’s room to sit all the way in the back. If there’s an upper level of seating, that might be tempting, but sometimes the choir and musicians hang out up there and it can be hard to make a quick getaway. If it looks empty, you know, dealer’s choice on where you want to sit.

Bring an audiobook or something, put in an earbud, and just get used to being around a number of other people, who are basically all focused on their thing, at a cost of free ninety nine.

If anyone says anything to you, just make the usual mouth noises and disengage to get to your spot. Under no circumstances tell them anything about you that makes you sound like a potential convert. If they get pushy, just say you’re looking at churches in the area. If you don’t like the vibe, bail. Eventually, after weeks or months, the people of wherever you settle will grow used to this strange new newcomer and start trying to make actual small talk, which you can engage with or not as you please, but it will help you personally if you do it.

Eventually, you might get to feeling like part of a community and start wanting to pitch in on something. This is basically achievable without ever believing a word out of the preacher’s mouth, or doing any lying yourself, and is thus accessible to everyone no matter their personal moral code. But that feeling of being part of a community will do you a lot of good.

I’m not going to promise it will get you a job, although church folk usually do look out for each other and try to network those things once you are a known quantity.

I’m definitely not going to promise it will get you a wife and a family. But it will get you the sensation that you are part of a broader group than just your family and one friend, and that that group sort of vaguely cares about you and your wellbeing.

And you can have all these benefits for as close to free as you care to get, without ever changing your personal beliefs. You could be an atheist your whole life and still be a beloved and respected member of a church community, by just putting in the time and not being specific about some things.

If you’re still here, seriously, I am not saying you have to find a church specifically. That’s just the example that I know. If you can find something else that hits the positive points of church that I described above, do what moves you, man. Just find somewhere you can regularly be in a community of 50 or more people, and not necessarily have to talk much or ever.

Please don’t join a cult.

Okay, here’s the part you might not like. The only free version of this that I personally know of is church.

Yeah, people keep recommending that to me, despite my being a lifelong atheist who's never attended before. Though mostly from different reasons than what you seem to be pushing. Because I don't see the point of just sitting and neither listening to the sermons nor interacting with anyone.

You don’t want a megachurch

I don't think we have any big enough in Anchorage to fit that description

I would say you want to ID every church in a distance you think is achievable in winter time, then go check them all out.

I've kind of looked at them, and none seem like good fits.

Find one that has about 75-100 people in the pews

That sounds bigger than most of the churches around here, from what I've seen.

Bring an audiobook or something, put in an earbud

Isn't this both rude, and get in the way of the point of going, which is to meet and interact with new people? Because I don't see any point to just being around a bunch of people.

and just get used to being around a number of other people

You say that like I have a problem with "being around a number of other people."

If anyone says anything to you, just make the usual mouth noises

Having never attended a church, and being an unbeliever, I have no idea what those are.

Please don’t join a cult.

That rules out the closest church, because it's part of a Mexican cult. The "no whites allowed" Samoan church moved elsewhere. So that just leaves the black Baptist church that advertises local Democrat politicians, or the Lutheran church with the woman pastor whose LinkedIn page has the usual rainbow flags.

I'm in favor of both birthday themed workouts, adjusted to whatever level or style you like, with an arbitrary number related to your age.

This year, I was working late, and for various personal crisis reasons I didn't really want to do anything major, so I told my wife I wanted to get a little high and get a big takeout order of boneless wings and watch an old horror movie. While this was hardly the world's most decadent thing, it was a clear indulgence, and it was exactly what I wanted.

birthday themed workouts

I can just about swim to save my life right now but that's it. Someone told me about a "birthday set" in swimming, 100x100 on 1:40 (i.e., 100sec) and I'm tempted to see if I can get there in time for my next birthday.

I had to look this up to make sure I was reading this correctly...100x100, so 10,000m? 10k? So like three hours of swimming at that pace? That's genuinely insane to me. I've done a mile, but that? That's crazy.

Start updating us if you go for it.

This year, I was working late, and for various personal crisis reasons I didn't really want to do anything major, so I told my wife I wanted to get a little high and get a big takeout order of boneless wings and watch an old horror movie.

I can't begin to describe how bad this bit of humble-bragging on your part makes me feel.

Sorry. I was trying to give an example of something low key. Guess I need to aim lower.

At this point, "a big takeout order of boneless wings" is almost Roman emperor levels of decadence given their cost.

Is it? I recall it being $20 with a minor tip for a couple pounds. Which I guess isn't nothing.

Idk maybe this is my how much could a banana be.

It's not just that he can afford takeout;

This year, I was working late

tells us he has a job, and

I told my wife

tells us he has a wife.

I don't wish to be unkind, but I think you need to take a step back from your own perspective on this one. I'm sure you are pretty unhappy about not having a job or a wife, but that doesn't make it "bragging" when someone else mentions those things about their life in passing. Nor is it very helpful to bite someone's head off when they were trying to help you. This is a situation where even if it made you feel bad, the right thing to do is to remind yourself that they weren't trying to take a dig at you and let it go.

I turned 40 this year, and one thing which helped me was to just stubbornly insist "I'm going to have a good time, fuck my inner voices". Specifically I didn't want to be depressed because I'm (approximately) halfway through my years on this earth, because it seemed to me like it would be a waste to spend my limited time worrying about my death. I know that's not exactly what you're going through, but perhaps a similar approach of trying to focus on the good things and enjoy them might help you?

because it seemed to me like it would be a waste to spend my limited time worrying about my death

It's not so much my death I'm worrying about — again, there are times I consider hastening it to the present — but the utter purposelessness and futility of my existence. Why live another 30 (miserable) years, when there's just no point to any of it? When no matter how much longer I live, it won't amount to anything?

perhaps a similar approach of trying to focus on the good things

What good things?

and enjoy them

That would require that I enjoy something. I don't. Nothing brings me enjoyment. Every moment I continue to draw breath is misery… and it will always be this way. I will never be happy. There will never be even a moment of joy between now and my death, only pain.

So why keep going, if not for some purpose? For some reason to keep going through this miserable existence, instead of just ending my suffering now? But I don't have one that I have any hope of pursuing.

(And don't recommend meds or therapy. This is me on meds, and I'm seeing a therapist pretty regularly.)

So why keep going, if not for some purpose? For some reason to keep going through this miserable existence, instead of just ending my suffering now? But I don't have one that I have any hope of pursuing.

The purpose of life isn't pleasure, it's agency. What are you doing to help other humans, to create beauty or to add order to the world?

If you live with a parent and many small children, then there are certainly parts of your daily environment that desperately need to be put in order, repaired, or spruced up. Can you tidy up, repair or clean one thing per day in your living space? That's valuable even if it eventually gets messed up again. I tend to think the outdoor living space is better to start on, but I don't live in Alaska.

If you live near the most-shoplifted Walmart in the entire world, then there are many areas of community life in your area where help is urgently needed. Maybe that's in direct ministry to the elderly, children, animals, maybe it's in civic areas like cleanup, archiving, lobbying, research, information management. The time of an intelligent, conscientious person who writes well is a tremendously valuable resource. As others have said, can you find an organization that is doing good and regularly contribute your time in service to them?

And unpopular take, but if you're consuming a lot of porn or other superstimulating media (including internet), cut it out. If you're already displeased with how your motivation/reward systems are working, then start by not deliberately screwing up your dopamine circuitry any more than you can help.

Much of the time what we perceive as misery is closer to disappointment. Buddhism has a lot to say about this (nearly all of it, imo, total bunk) but the whole "desire brings suffering" thing is spot on. Take twenty minutes, sit somewhere without pressing distractions, and focus on the moment. Push all of your worries and expectations out of your mind and just take reality in. The physical sensations, the sights, the sounds, the internal experience of being you. I think you will find existence itself, moment to moment, quite pleasant.

"But why should I let go of my expectations? They're correct! I absolutely should have a healthy marriage/kids/a great career/fame/fortune/health/popularity/a fulfilling hobby. I deserve at least one of those things. Isn't that the bare minimum?"

Of course, I don't mean to downplay what you're going through or tell you to give up. Those desires are still healthy. I just want you to know that there's a very pleasant base-level reality that exists on a much deeper level than your goals and self-conceptions, and visiting it, even staying for a few months, is perfectly fine.

Take twenty minutes, sit somewhere without pressing distractions, and focus on the moment.

This sounds like meditation, which I've been informed is a very bad idea for schizophrenics like myself.

Push all of your worries and expectations out of your mind

I have no idea how.

and just take reality in. The physical sensations, the sights, the sounds, the internal experience of being you.

"The internal experience of being me" comes with a lot of angst, and the potential return of the hallucinations despite the meds that currently suppress them.

I think you will find existence itself, moment to moment, quite pleasant.

I haven't before.

I just want you to know that there's a very pleasant base-level reality that exists on a much deeper level than your goals and self-conceptions, and visiting it, even staying for a few months, is perfectly fine.

I think you're wrong. "Base-level reality" is horrible.

Sitting on a park bench and taking everything in is not meditation. There may be meditative properties to it, but probably less than going on a run or taking a hot shower, or heck trying to fall asleep. The point isn't to empty your mind, or be more conscious of your own thoughts, it's just to experience life and physical sensation without worrying about higher-level things like goals and regrets.

The way to do this--to forget worries, expectations, and ideally your own self-conception--is not to remove them or push them out per se, it's to replace them and focus your attention on other things. Preoccupy yourself with more immediate things like the way the light filters through the trees, and other things will naturally take a back seat. You can't successfully order yourself not to think about pink elephants, but you can make your mind busy enough with other things to accomplish something similar.

There were a few months in college when I had just been broken up with by the only girlfriend I thought I'd ever have, I had bad grades, I was taking steroids that made me extremely anxious around everyone and about everything, and I had severe ulcerative colitis, which sent me to the bathroom every thirty minutes or so to experience waves of searing-hot pain and crap out a few ounces of blood. The physical experience was by far the most painful thing I've ever felt, and if anything the surrounding life circumstances were even worse.

Still, I found that taking it moment by moment--ignoring the higher-level stuff my brain was telling me and focusing on reality itself--even the worst moments of pain were not just endurable, but downright pleasant. David Foster Wallace puts it better than I can.

But he’d also gotten a personal prickly chill all over from his own thinking. He could do the dextral pain the same way: Abiding. No one single instant of it was unendurable. Here was a second right here: he endured it. What was undealable-with was the thought of all the instants all lined up and stretching ahead, glittering. And the projected future fear of the A.D.A., whoever was out there in a hat eating Third World fast food; the fear of getting convicted of Nuckslaughter, of V.I.P.-suffocation; of a lifetime on the edge of his bunk in M.C.I. Walpole, remembering. It’s too much to think about. To Abide there. But none of it’s as of now real. What’s real is the tube and Noxzema and pain. And this could be done just like the Old Cold Bird. He could just hunker down in the space between each heartbeat and make each heartbeat a wall and live in there. Not let his head look over. What’s unendurable is what his own head could make of it all. What his head could report to him, looking over and ahead and reporting. But he could choose not to listen; he could treat his head like G. Day or R. Lenz: clueless noise. He hadn’t quite gotten this before now, how it wasn’t just the matter of riding out the cravings for a Substance: everything unendurable was in the head, was the head not Abiding in the Present but hopping the wall and doing a recon and then returning with unendurable news you then somehow believed.

I'm not telling you to give up on your ego entirely. For that matter, I'm not convinced the many people who say that they have are being honest. But there are stories we tell about our own lives that do more harm than good. We all need stories to get by, goals and dreams and aspirations and regrets and self-conceptions, but it's valuable to be consciously aware that this story-level reality is not base-level reality, that there exists a level of experience beneath and supporting all of that. It is possible for your stories to be wrong. They do not define you, they just preoccupy you and disappoint you. You can find better replacements, stories that inspire you.

First of all, I get you on at least some level. The personal side of me notices that there have been times even within the last few years where quite literally I am only alive because I didn't want to inflict suffering on my family and friends. And honestly I think that's a totally fine and complete reason to keep existing. I'm not sure your exact situation, but hopefully something similar applies.

The religious/more generalized-spiritual side of me says that you should spend some time helping others if you have nothing to be thankful for. Literally and physically volunteer. Despite its spiritual roots, I'm pretty sure this is a quite practical suggestion as well. Pessimistically, say we agree with your claim that you enjoy quite literally nothing and are quite literally miserable 24/7... you can still find a degree of purpose by helping others, which is real.

(On that note, I'd suggest - though I haven't personally read yet - Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl, which might jive with your situation a bit.)

The heartless statistics side of me says that regular exercise is quite literally just as if not more effective than meds or therapy, so... do that. Stupid, annoying, but clearly works. It's almost literally the most durable scientific finding in all of depression research, despite being one of the hardest to do for obvious reasons (it may be useful to recruit someone to bully you into it, or do it with you - be vulnerable and ask). The statistics of these kinds of states are weird - for example, I intellectually know, it's an established fact, that if I don't get enough sleep, I get extremely depressed at night before bed. That knowledge doesn't quite help in that actual moment, not a ton, but that does slightly help me frame what's "real" properly.

The more neuroscience/quirky side of me suggests that you break out of mental ruts in a deliberate way. For example, I was also recently recommended, of all things, a book called Impro, a set of essays about improv, but as a life-outlook kind of book. One exercise therein is silly but I do believe it "works": Simply spend a few minutes walking around the room and shouting out loud the wrong names for things. Allegedly, this can help you experience the world more vividly for a few moments. I'm not sure that particular exercise is of value to you, but the general concept of "do something deliberately weird or crazy" might be. Frame things differently, and be a little extreme about it. How this might manifest for you? Do something extremely quirky or way outside the norm as a birthday activity. Show up at a local coffee shop and start complimenting strangers. Go to the bank, withdraw a ton of single dollar bills, and give them away to people. Dress up for some banal errands. That kind of thing.

I was going to reply with all my various objections and nitpicks about these suggestions (like mentioning how I go for regular walks, or my landlords' noise rules, or our anti-panhandling laws), but why bother?

as scale increases, none of us matter

all will die, decay, and be forgotten

when your perspective is small enough, lots of things you do matter

get a pet, take care of the pet

get a pet, take care of the pet

I can't even afford to take care of myself, really. Over half my income goes to rent + utilities; food is about 75%-80% of what's left. I wash my underwear in my bathroom sink and hang it to dry to save on laundry costs.

you can start very small with that, too

catch a toad outside and put it in a jar

food can be caught or bought for a few dollars

taking care of other things makes me happy and brings me joy

Another option might be volunteering. IDK what things are like in Anchorage, but by me there are all kinds of charitable organizations (e.g. Habitat for Humanity) that are always looking for volunteers. It's free (obviously), often pretty easy to do (because they want to make it easy to get volunteers contributing), you will generally get to socialize with people while you are there, and it feels good to do something to help others.

Sorry, I'm not really sure how best to answer your questions. Would you truly say, upon introspection, that you have literally zero joy every single day? I assume you're telling the truth and that you feel that way at this moment, but let's say tomorrow morning or another time once your brain has had a chance to reset. There's not even one second of joy? Not something as simple as a hot shower, listening to good music, or eating a tasty meal? It seems to me like there is likely to be something, however small and insignificant it may seem right now, that you do enjoy. Obviously I'm not you and can't say for sure. But if there is anything, then perhaps focusing on those things can help. Or perhaps not. All I can say is that approach has helped me at times.

I wish I had some pat answer I could give you of "do this one weird trick and you'll be happier", but unfortunately I don't. Honestly I don't even have any training or knowledge on how to help people who struggle with their mental health. But for what it's worth, I'm genuinely sorry thar you are in so much pain. You seem like a decent guy, and it sounds like life has dealt you a pretty rough hand. I wish I could do more to help, brother.

Would you truly say, upon introspection, that you have literally zero joy every single day?

Take depression, add the anhedonia that is one of the "negative" symptoms of schizophrenia on top of that, and bundle it with being an utter failure at life.

You seem like a decent guy

That's not something I hear very often, particularly on an online forum where my political views are known.

I'm not sure this will actually help your situation, but I'm still going to suggest birthday squats. Whatever scheme you want. The formulation I think of is (BW + BW load) for one giant set of (age) reps. So a 185 lbs 40 year old would squat 185 lbs of external load for 40 reps. Pause at any point, but don't rack the bar until you've finished the set (or collapse). It seems unlikely you will be worried about future suffering after finishing, with any luck you'll be in so much pain you won't have any spare capacity to worry about anything else.

The formulation I think of is (BW + BW load) for one giant set of (age) reps. So a 185 lbs 40 year old would squat 185 lbs of external load for 40 reps. Pause at any point, but don't rack the bar until you've finished the set (or collapse).

This smells of https://xkcd.com/2501/

The number of BW + BW load reps your average American can do can be counted on the fingers of one carpenter's hand.

It is decently advanced.

That being said, a 2X body weight squat is a pretty achievable strength standard for most men. Very roughly, about 50% of a 1RM is a weight you can do indefinitely. It is supposed to be a challenge though. It's also about half of the 405x50 mark set by Tom Platz. So if the left tail of the log normal stops at 0, and the right tail is Tom Platz, halfway in-between doesn't seem that far out there for the average person to shoot for as a benchmark.

Very roughly, about 50% of a 1RM is a weight you can do indefinitely.

Hm, my squat 1RM is 1xBW or so, and I think I can squat 0.5xBW with rest, but without racking not literally indefinitely, but 40 times, so the math checks out.

I have no idea where the median of the distribution lies, so I can't say how reasonable your goal is.

That 180-lbs 65yo at the gym is in for a rough birthday.

Yes, but his friends will be proportionately more impressed by the tough old bird, and high rep back squats are all about suffering anyway.

high rep back squats are all about suffering anyway.

I'm a tall guy who is all legs. It doesn't have to be high rep for back squats to be suffering.

That's part of the appeal.

The first time you can't do it you have to face down the question of: "Have I just let my self go, am I just not trying hard enough, or am in that era of appreciable physical decline."

If it's because you've let yourself go it gives you the opportunity to correct with no more than a years lag.

I also assume your ability to grind through progressively more unpleasant tasks grows with experiencing life's shit, so you'll be able to try hard enough?

Having a benchmark to know when you need to acknowledge when you are in decline is the real value though. Not that the day you can't do it is the end, but maybe that day is a sign that you should figure out what to do for when the decline gets serious. How many people do you see who should have retired before their job destroyed their body. Or should have long ago given up driving and are now a hazard on the road. Or had plenty of opportunity to make a living will but instead are rotting in agony leaving their family in an impossible position.

a sign that you should figure out what to do for when the decline gets serious.

What to do? Go hiking in the Grand Canyon and hope to go out like this guy.

All of this requires access to a weight set.

Edit: not to mention that in my case, it would probably destroy my knees.

Edit 2:

with any luck you'll be in so much pain you won't have any spare capacity to worry about anything else.

Isn't using physical pain as a distraction from emotional pain the idea behind cutting, and other forms of self-harm?

"lift heavy stone make sad head voice quiet", it's not necessarily the pain that does that.

Isn't using physical pain as a distraction from emotional pain the idea behind cutting, and other forms of self-harm?

Yes. The difference is that the scars from cutting leave you externally disfigured, while the scars from lifting leave you swole.

hile the scars from lifting leave you swole.

Again, assuming you don't horribly injure yourself in the process (such as by trying to squat over 300 lbs with bad knees).

Uhh, sorry if you've posted more extensively about your training history in the past and I didn't remember it. The only themotte fitness I readily recall is that 5hour is training for a century ride, jdizzler sometimes posts about veganism and general endurance training (mostly running I think), and Skookum did not actually attempt The Hock (though in my head canon he's still out there climbing the glacier).

Squats for (BW + BW load) x age

is decently advanced. Although I did say

Whatever scheme you want.

I apologize if I completely misunderstand and you are 6'7" and yours knees are shot from playing O-line in the NFL. Based only on the implication that you do not lift weights regularly and weigh over 300 lbs, I would for sure suggest some easier scaling. If you are looking for a serious suggestion for a physical birthday activity for a total novice at >300# body weight <40 Years old, I would maybe suggest no external load and breaking it up into 5-10 sets of body weight squats.

I don't think some sort of physical challenge for your birthday is all that bad of an idea or even that unusual. For example @thejdizzler:

running my age in miles on my birthday

It's a way of regularly measuring where you're at. More importantly, it's a physically manifestation of facing the continuing but ultimately futile battle against entropy that makes up life.

@orthoxerox did already summarize the broader point I was gesturing to though:

lift heavy stone make sad head voice quiet

It's not at all unusual for people to find that lifting (and other exercise, jdizzler making the rest of us look bad casually running 28 miles) can have a positive impact on physical and mental health.

Checking in on the fisetin bros, it's been about 5 years. Some of you were doing it regularly. Still going strong or have you decided it isn't actually doing anything?

What is or was fisetin?

It's some chemical found in a lot of fruits, there was supposedly a study suggesting if you take a mega concentrated dose of it it reverses a bunch of symptoms of aging.

A bunch of people in this community were trying it out a while back.

I stopped doing it a while ago. Seemed to be overkill with the amount of endurance exercise I'm doing. Although this might just be post-hoc justification for the fact that I took it right before my oral board exam+ drank coffee and nearly had a panic attack and have had a negative association since.

Five years? But... It can't be...

/images/1762380198540429.webp

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