ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
No bio...
User ID: 626
I would say "more attention than puberty blockers", because the number of affected kids is much higher.
On the other hand, other parts of gender affirming care, might not have such a big impact, and aren't actively being sold as reversible. Either way, puberty blockers alone warrant a massive amount of attention if we compare them to other issues that entered social consciousness. Harvey Weinstein affected way fewer people, but we spent way more time on him then we do on blockers, for example.
Also, if blockers aren't such a big deal, then let's just ban them. After all very few people would be affected by the ban.
Something caused a massive uptick in either the experience of dysphoria, the reaction to dysphoria, or some combination thereof. I think "social contagion" is a thought-terminating non-explanation here.
We don't actually know whether more people experience dysphoria, vs. interpret their experience as dysphoria. This goes right to your point about social contagion. Just look at some of the other contagions - the Satanic Panic, alien abductions, recovered memories, anorexia - the incidence of these, and many other things, increase with coverage from the media, and there's no evidence they increase with the actual phenomenon increasing in frequency, or at least I'm yet to see evidence of an actual alien abduction. So I see no reason to assume that gender dysphoria is any different.
To reduce the rate of trans identification, I think it would be worth looking into what generally leads to discomfort with being embodied
Social contagion is exactly one of the explanations offered for this. It says that what leads to discomfort with being embodied is talking about discomfort with being embodied, especially when you glamorize it during the conversation.
Of course, if you don't actually care about that and your main objection is to "point deer say horse", that is perfectly valid.
Nope, that's more of an argument against mantras like "trans women are women", I agree it's not related to any discussion on gender affirming care. I'm quite puzzled why you'd think otherwise, actually.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1mo ago
What you are saying is true, but incomplete. If someone were certain to transition, it is unarguably true that it is better for them to begin pre-puberty and be in the puberty blockers -> transition pipeline. But the important word there is if.
To pick a nit, that's nit necessarily true. It might turn out that early puberty blockade causes issues later on (say, early onset osteoporosis and/or dementia) that the patient might in hindsight decide weren't worth the benefits of better looks while young.
That's another "if" on my part, of course, but just wanted to point out it's not unarguable.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1mo ago
And yeah, who knows wtf will happen with JFK at the helm.
Ok, that's it. I criticized the Democrats for hiding Buden's decline, so I can't, in good conscience, support Trump when he's appointing literal corpses.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1mo ago
I really don't think puberty blockers warrant special attention here.
Sure, the rest of gender affirming care is dubious too, and needs just as much attention as puberty blockers.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1mo ago
Ok, but when we see a sudden massive increase in that element, surely it's worth looking into why it's happening, and taking steps against it?
and in fact are being vague enough that it could be any other country than Russia and any time period within the last 30 year
Sorry for being vague, but I'm a little paranoid. For what it's worth you're right my connections to Russia are a bit distant (second cousin tier), bit I do have them, it's also true that it's been a while since moved (but it's more 15-ish years than 30)
It's easy to dismiss the anxiety-wracked youths
We've had Russians living in the west that got canceled for not condemning Putin, do you think their anxiety, and assurances that they moved out for ideological reasons, might have something to do with that?
Seems like there'd be less friction in moving for a 100% raise in spending power/salary if the destination country is less restrictive on your habits than your home country, and vice versa.
You never talked to a westerner that moved to China? I've never heard one of them mention restrictive government as a factor in their decision. Also, I think it's completely wrong to call western government and society less restrictive. They might be more encouraging of degeneracy, but they definitely do not leave you alone to do your own thing, even when you're not harming anyone.
Additionally, the more you restrict websites registered in your country without outright hard-firewalling yourself away from the world, the more people will just stick to foreign websites through VPN rather than developing your own infosphere.
Sure, I'm fine with that. I don't mind people accessing porn through bespoke darkweb gates, I just don't want companies like pornhub and onlyfans operating in broad daylight,
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
1mo ago
Yes. I if you have an hour or so to kill, I recommend this interview with a man who suffered from hypogonadism as a kid. He reports it had a quite profound impact on his psychology.
I kinda wish they had already studied it before prescribing them to children and explicitly marketing them as reversible. You can point out the irony, I guess, but it's hard to pin that on Trump.
Also, if an animal trial is enough for you, we already have a study on sheep that shows a fairly big impact on brain development.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Damn. Well, personally I'd either campaign to put him, and the person that gave him the license in prison, or I'd shoot the mofo myself.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
You can also just have friends, but not gonna lie, it's fun to tell all the crazy shit I've been reading to the missus.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Would you give a license to kill 5 people per year to a known sociopath? It's less people than those that die by lightning strike, even if he maxxes out the limit. That's basically how I see the issue, even if the consequences are less severe than death.
I also don't see any problems with implementing the political apparatus. We already have it, it's just asleep at the wheel.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
I'll venture I wild guess I have better knowledge of emigration out of Eastern Europe that exceeds yours, given that I am an Eastern European emigrant.
I was being bombastic, but ideological emigration is not a thing on any statistically significant scale. I suppose you can make the argument that a country might get it's ass kicked if the ideological emigrants are von Neumans and von Brauns, but even that rests on many assumptions of dubious quality.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Are there any studies on this that you know of?
Sadly, I must refer you back to the "it hasn't been properly studied" point above. "No conclusions can be drawn" is basically a constant refrain in the Cass Review.
How did you find this out?
I think the first time I heard about it was with the case of Jazz Jennings, the rest is connecting the dots from what gender clinicians say themselves. From another post of mine:
But when gender care providers themselves tell me that "puberty blockers are reversible (asterisk)", the asterisk being you can't stay on them too long, or that if you start them too early you're never going to have an orgasm, when celebrity cases like Jazz Jennings say they don't regret going on blockers, but the downside was "there wasn't enough tissue to work with when it came to the surgery" (and also don't know what an orgasm is), when the industry comes up with procedures like sigmoid vaginoplasties or zero depth vaginoplasties to either hack around or throw up their hands about the issue, can we say that there are good reasons to suspect some of the changes may be irreversible?
One note: I did adjust my position somewhat since writing it. Recently I've seen an interview with a guy that had hypogonadism, basically the opposite of precocious puberty, where his body didn't want to trigger normal development. Apparently doctors managed to get him mostly up to speed where he now looks and acts (the lack of puberty also affected his psychology) like a normal bloke, so from this I figure it's not as bad as I thought. I keep promising myself I'll look into the literature on his condition, since if it describes what happens when it's untreated, that should give a non-politicized answer to the question of what happens due to puberty blockers, but I haven't found the time / motivation to do so yet.
I've also know of at least one detrans woman who managed to get pregnant post-testosterone (I think there are even non-detrans females that gave birth while constantly taking hormones). This is all in contrast to the blockers+hormones case, where I see gender clinicians themselves getting nervous, trying to adjust time-tables, and hacking around the issue, as per the quote above.
Sorry if it's conjecture, but I don't think anyone has actual data on this (or they do, but keep it secret, which wouldn't be surprising either at this point).
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
I'm a nihilistic hedonist, and I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own bodies
Show me your anti-COVID-vaxx mandate posts, please.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
which assumes that being trans is a negative and it's bad for it to spread.
No matter which way you slice it, medical transition will have negative effects on your health. Few people would consider it a good idea to do it for cosmetic reasons, and even fewer parents would let their children do it for such a reason. This is why the possibility of the desire to transition being spread socially needs to be denied, and reasons for urgency (like suicide risk) need to be invented.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Is there a reason you think that puberty blockers, specifically, are a big problem?
Yeah, they alter the normal development of a healthy child. This is not the case with precocious puberty, so the comparison is not valid.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Many emigrate from places such as Russia because they were merely afraid that at some point the nuts will get screwed tight enough that they won't be allowed to doomscroll what they want and goon to what they want to on their mobile devices. Or ban being gay, or ban talking about being gay, or do a number of other things the young view as backwards and retarded.
No one, and I mean absolutely no one, emigrates out of Russia for that reason. They do it for the money. Also it's not a "at some point" thing over there, these things are already banned.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
What are the actual requirements for getting prescribed puberty blockers?
The criteria for a gender dysphoria diagnosis is that you're "consistent, persistent, and insistent" about it, I think I even they even give a specific time period of exhibiting *sistence, and if memory serves, it's something like a few months. I'll try to look it up, and get back to you.
The pro-trans tribe insists that it is a very rigorous process involving thorough checking of gender dysphoria
Sorry for the harsh words, but this is just a lie. Gender clinicians will say themselves, when they think you're not listening, that the issue shouldn't be medicalized, and it's just about patient autonomy and free expression. Many detransitioners say they got prescriptions after a session or two. There was a sting operation were a girl got it after 9 minutes on the phone.
And malpractice aside, like I said the official criteria is that you say you're trans and don't change your mind about it for a few months, I might be missing something, but I don't see much opportunity for rigor here.
Is there any actual scientific evidence in favor of social contagion playing any part in transgenderism?
It hasn't been properly studied yet to my knowledge as, until recently, the hypothesis was treated as an insane conspiracy theory.
Are there any actually valid critiques of the Cass Review?
Not to my knowledge, but I'm biased.
What are the probabilities of serious consequences from puberty blockers?
The deadly cocktail is blockers + opposite sex hormones, that basically clinches infertility and/or anorgasmia. Either one of those without the other is recoverable to some extent. There's a whole section on puberty blockers in the Cass Review, and from what I recall reversibility on healthy, normally developing children has never been studied.
What are examples of irrationality in these discussions to you?
Instead of talking about a hypothetical dismissal, please actually explain the grounds on which you want to dismiss it yourself.
I'll be happy to, but I must also note that the dismissal would absolutely take place (and that you know it would), because the non-rationality of the discourse is part of our conversation. If you want a non-hypothetical example, just look at the conversation in this thread, and note the amount of people that don't even bother questioning OP's evidence, putting forward arguments that are later refuted with evidence, but not changing their mind, etc. This sort of stuff happens all the time, has always happened, and will continue to happen. At some point we should just come clean and admit that the conversation we're having is not based on reason.
Usual objection: coordination problem.
We ban shit all the time, and you don't need a dictatorship for it. The EU basically forced retarded cookie banners on the world, so they can force porn sites back into the underground as well.
how do you stop people from defecting to a country that doesn't participate in the bans, and that country subsequently curbstomping yours?
I'm not convinced this is even a realistic threat. Who is going to leave behind their house, job, and family, because they're not allowed to goon and/or doomscroll on a mobile device?
Uh, it depends on what exactly you define the problem to be. Do you want people to report happiness/satisfaction of a cluster of needs that could be summarised as "companionship", or do you want people to pair up?
The latter. If I wanted to maximize reports of happiness/satisfaction, I'd be hooking people on heroin, and ensuring they answer the survey while high.
To a skeptic, this exchange may be isomorphic to something like:
Tribal elder: It is a problem that nobody sacrifices to the grain gods anymore, but you progressives will never acknowledge that there might be a problem there because there is no progressive solution to it.
Progressive(?): Well, there's a perfectly progressive solution. We just have to build up a fertiliser industry and develop industrial farming, so there will never be a shortage of grain again.
Aren't you the tribal elder and me the progressive in this scenario? I'm the one insisting the goal is reflective of material reality, while you're the one pushing for a simulacrum with no connection to it.
Anyway, this only proves my thesis. Either your example is reflective of our case - two people talking about two different issues, and the progressive is more than happy to chime in, because he has a progressive solution to a progressive issue - after it's been reframed to be about something else (grain production, rather than the originally raised decline of religion). Or - let's assume the Elder was actually worried about a potential famine - he's happy to talk about it because there is a progressive solution on offer.
In my entire social bubble, tracking from early graduate school if not earlier, there are few signs of "romance recession"
Like I said, not a rational conversation. This argument would be immediately dismissed if it was used to argue for something you disagree with, and you know it.
Instead of talking about a hypothetical dismissal, please actually explain the grounds on which you want to dismiss it yourself. I don't see anything obviously wrong with it
You really don't see an issue with the bit I quoted? You'd accept an argument like "in my geographical bubble there's few signs of 'global warming'"?
variants like "$country will be majority-Muslim in a few years even if we stop immigration now" are structurally exactly the same thing deployed to right-wing ends.
Not exactly. Sure, it's possible that resistence to anti-natalism will be passed down, but then again it's also possible that it won't, so you're basically saying "we might recover or not" and bring no new definition to the table. And even if recovery does occur, your argument offers no insight into what such a world will look like, and whether we should embrace or avoid it.
Do you think that one can be dismissed too, or are Muslims uniquely capable of receiving the boons of natural selection?
I actually think Muslims in Europe are just as susceptible to progressive anti-natalism as Europeans, they might still end up the majority because of different starting points for the trends, but I'm not in favor of naive extrapolation of the present state.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
Why bend over backwards to dunk on the forum
Sorry about that, but I'm a bit jaded about the pretense of rationality in these discussions. They never have been, and I doubt they even can be.
instead of proposing solutions yourself?
Ban porn sites, dating sites, smartphones, and civilian wireless internet.
There is an obvious 50-Stalins solution to the "romance recession", which is waifu/husbando tech/ever-improving AI partners.
I might be missing something, but it sounds like the opposite of a solution.
In my entire social bubble, tracking from early graduate school if not earlier, there are few signs of "romance recession"
Like I said, not a rational conversation. This argument would be immediately dismissed if it was used to argue for something you disagree with, and you know it.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
The issue is the Dems are a hostile party when it comes to immigration
Why? Aren't they the adults in the room?
but it explicitly rejects the more aggressive notion much of MAGA advanced that Biden
You can reject it all you want, that's not the issue. The point is that Biden was exhibiting enough worrying behavior to warrant questions about whether he's fit for office. It never was a crazy conspiracy theory that the establishment media, including the author, portrayed it as. Even if the more aggressive notion was (originally) wrong, it was still reasonable and justified.
I don't know why the establishment insists on disagreeing with populists in the most obnoxious ways possible, but in anything from "hug an Asian day" at the wake of Covid to smugposting about how safe Brussels is like a week before someone suicide bombed himself there, they just can't seem to express a simple sentiment like "I disagree, but I see where you're coming from". A good deal of the trust issues with media could be solved if they were capable of respectful disagreement.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
2mo ago
You don't have to tell this to me, but I've already heard arguments like "look at those silly conservatives crying about falling birthrates but opposing IVF / surrogacy / artificial wombs".
Huh? How do you ask "is this actually gender dysphoria" to someone who hasn't heard of the concept?
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