Clementine
11d ago
So the war is (at least temporarily) over.
No one, myself included, fully believed Hamas was going to actually hand over the live hostages until they did so. They are now withholding the dead ones, which is more typical.
The joy about the hostages' release was obviously mixed with other feelings, hence Israeli social media being full of posts commemorating the dead, and Israeli talk in the streets full of mourning the release of terrorists and the inevitable encouraging of more kidnappings (an attempt at kidnapping was foiled the day before).
Still, there was a lot of joy to be had.
As for the long term repercussions of these two years of war... No one knows yet, obviously.
One thing I am somewhat curious to see is what happens with Gazans getting work permits to enter Israel — before the war that was a thing (thousands of permits and millions of dollars in wages), but in the wake of the revelation that they then gave maps of the places they visited to Hamas (in fairness — they were probably being threatened by Hamas if they didn't) I don't know if the communities surrounding Gaza will be willing to allow it again. A lot of those communities were pretty left-wing and peace-minded and I don't know to what extent that position changed after the massacres.
Also before the war the government was pursuing a strategy of "surely with enough money Hamas will just focus on governing" hence the (in Israeli terms) scandal over how much money Netanyahu was giving them from Qatar. I think the dream of them being pacified with money is pretty thoroughly dead on the Israeli side these days, and that might also affect the work permit equation.
West Bank Palestinians have been having a lot more difficulty getting entry permits since the war as well, I actually do expect that to ease up pretty significantly now, especially if things stay calm for like, a month. I hope I'm right about that.
A lot of I/P coexistence initiatives went into hibernation mode after the outbreak of the war. They had already started to come back before this ceasefire — I went to one a few months ago, a meeting of West Bank Palestinians and Israelis in a relatively more safe area of the West Bank (so Palestinians could get to it without needing entry permits and Israelis would be less scared of going than if it was held in other areas of the West Bank). I feel like that meetup is probably worth a separate post (it was fascinating) but in any case I do expect the coexistence initiatives to start doing a lot better if the sort-of peace also sort-of holds. The veterans of those groups say they're used to these kinds of ebbs and flows.
I am skeptical we get a break from the decades of missiles from Gaza because of the ostensible ceasefire — that hasn't been the case in all previous "ceasefires", so if it happened it would be a sign something is actually different about this one.
We're due an election in a year but historically Israel very very very rarely (aka: it happened one time) makes it all the way to the actual official due date instead of calling early elections. So we'll probably get one soon.
Anyway. For now it's "wait and see". I'm not optimistic about the summit in Egypt leading to any real change but I truly would love to be proven wrong and something good happens for once. And whatever the future holds, in the moment, right now, I am really happy that the last two years are over.
Clementine
3mo ago
Have to take a break from the motte. Since I had a previous post discussing some anxiety about being here, am posting to make it clear it's nothing to do with anyone here, the discussion was fine and respectful (although I ended up regretting defending Turok lol). I also hope to eventually be back, joining was me dipping my toes but turns out I'm not quite ready for it, might be ready for it someday though. Just wasn't managing to do it with the proper balance for myself.
Clementine
3mo ago
You can’t sustain such systems long term.
Lots of duty based systems eg confucianism lasted long term. I'm not sure how well adapted they are to modern day life, where a lot of the scaffolding¹ that helps maintain the systems is crumbling. But these systems usually specifically have moral parables about people behaving virtuously — dutifully — even when they're reciprocated not just with nothing but with active ingratitude and disrespect.
¹ things like belief in a god who will reward you for virtuous behavior if you're not rewarded by the beneficiary here, stronger community bonds, staying in the same place for decades or centuries so that having a good reputation meant more than it does today, etc.
Clementine
3mo ago
Duty without reciprocation is just exploitation.
No, that's precisely the kind of rights-based mindset that I'm describing as not being duty-based.
Duty without reciprocation isn't exploitation, it's virtue. That's the entire point of duty-based thinking. That you might not get jack shit in return and you do it anyway, because it's your duty. The entire concept is of having things you do simply because you are supposed to, not for other incentives.
It is, admittedly, a very traditional mindset. But it's a fundamental lynchpin to how the whole thing holds together.
Clementine
3mo ago
...gotta say my reaction to that is a firm "ew". Delicacy, modesty, discretion, not saying everything out loud in public are all virtues.
Clementine
3mo ago
I had a vague post in mind that sort of overlapped with this one, which was just... The general lack of a sense of "duty". There's just a lot of talk about rights, or privileges, it feels like. Or of being taken advantage of (eg paying for children). Not "obviously if it's my child I have the responsibility to pay for them, what possible use for my money is more important than giving them as much support as I can".
I think the most basic component of a (successful) traditional marriage would be shared duty, both to the marriage itself, AND to something higher than the marriage itself. It's very different from marriage as a romantic fulfilment. Which you can still have, which is still even treated as something you can want, but when the marriage isn't romantically fulfilling but everyone is still doing their duties that's still considered a successful marriage, whereas in more modern culture I think it's considered a failure. (Fwiw I think the modern view has seeped into more traditional circles as well, but there's a clear generational shift I can see, because older couples are much more likely to think as I described)
I usually wonder about this kind of thing in a different sense, because men in spheres bemoaning lack of trad values often mention virginity but I'm never clear on if they're offering the same virginity themselves. And also if they're offering to respect their (prospective) girlfriend's desire for virginity until marriage and would indeed marry her without having sex.
Clementine
3mo ago
So you're not going to update your belief despite not being able to provide a single source corroborating it except a vague recollection that two decades ago you saw proof of it that you definitely, at the time, thoroughly investigated to make sure was reliable? You could at least make a token effort to dig it up if you've been spending years casually asserting every respected expert in the field knows life in the concentration camps included excellent medical care and recreational facilities.
Why would inflating the numbers make any difference? What would the incentive that you're hinting at be? If the Nazis deliberately murdered 4 million Jews instead of 6 that suddenly changes things?
The numbers are an estimate in any case, because the scale of the murder was so vast they have to be. It was certainly not a round 6,000,000.
Clementine
3mo ago
Thank you!
- Is there a reason the counterproductive effect of leptin in the obese isn't more common knowledge?
- Is there research being done on "fixing" leptin behavior? Or is semaglutide basically that fix?
- I know some people have been able to stop being obese via surgeries like stomach constriction, but that sometimes it doesn't work and they still feel compelled to overeat. Is there a separate mechanism in action for people where reducing stomach size also reduces inability to feel satiety versus those where it doesn't help?
- If they are hungry no matter how much they eat, does "fake" eating offer any help? Eating extreme low calorie high fiber foods? Chewing gum? I know another poster already said drinking water didn't help him.
(If it wasn't clear in my original post, I'm a willpower skeptic, I think it's profoundly stupid to assume obesity is a willpower problem, even if I don't know how to imagine the experience of what it feels like to fight the urge to eat without using willpower as a proxy for the challenge)
Clementine
3mo ago
I'm unaware of any mainstream historian or institution which disputes the matter, and you can easily google it and learn from whatever source you find credible
What am I supposed to Google? I tried medical care in concentration camps and got : https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/camp-hospitals/conditions-in-the-hospital/ and https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/medical-care-nazism-and-the-holocaust
As first results, neither of which corroborates your statement.
When I search for recreational facilities in concentration camps, I find this:
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/654671/summary
And this
https://www.auschwitz.org/en/education/e-learning/podcast/sport-and-sportstpeople-/
If it's so easy to search and find please tell me what to search for.
Clementine
3mo ago
This is weird, because now the link you sent doesn't show me the full article. It's been a while since I've used webarchive and maybe they've gotten worse at archiving?
Clementine
3mo ago
This analogy doesn't help as much as you (and I) might hope because I often accidentally dehydrate myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes but the author of the article is specifically positing that there's been a shift in attachment styles (something I previously mostly encountered as a trait you acquire very young, like, baby to toddler years). Perhaps he is using the term differently, but he does specifically refer to "secure attachment", so he's definitely borrowing the entire set of vocabulary while he's at it. And if he isn't using the term differently, it's really strange how the article is framed around "go against your attachment style, you need to not be avoidant" and not "but why are we experiencing an epidemic of avoidant personalities?"
Again the article has singleness as a symptom of the problem, so addressing other possible causes of singleness interests me less than "if it's true people nowadays are more avoidantly attached — why?"
Clementine
3mo ago
Scott's most recent post had someone linking to an article in the Atlantic about debunking a study, I went and read it and got sucked into the Atlantic rabbit hole.
Link one: Don't avoid romance says more people are single nowadays and unhappier nowadays because more people have avoidant attachment styles in the past, with some (mostly circumstantial) evidence that the amount of avoidant attachment is increasing. Ends with an exhortation to not be avoidant but doesn't examine the question I would have thought would be of interest, which is why more and more people don't have healthy attachment styles. (Aftereffects of higher divorce rate? Internet usage? Weaker community institutions? Microplastics? I'm just spitballing ideas but wouldn't a marked societal-leve change in people's psychology be something you'd want to investigate the causes of?)
Link two: The Ozempic Flip Flop as someone who gets full very quickly and doesn't have a very strong appetite, I've never really had good mental image of what it's like for normal people with normal appetites let alone obese people with obese appetites. This article in particular presents people who lost weight, noticed immediate massive benefits in their life they're desperate to keep, and yet still can't keep the weight from coming back. It is just the satiety setpoint being set so high it's torture for them to not eat to the point of overeating? I'm trying to match it to my own points of reference for "willpower" struggles but failing. I force myself to go to the gym despite not enjoying exercise, but that's forcing myself to do something, not forcing myself not to do something, so generally speaking once I overcome the activation barrier of inertia the hard part is over. I intermittently (deliberately, as opposed to non-deliberately) fast and can be hungry and craving food but to a pretty easily overcome extent. But what makes someone — who for months now has been eating much less — be unable to maintain the amount they've been eating for months but instead be compelled to keep eating more even though it's actively physically hurting them (and costing them in other ways, like socially). How much stronger incentive can you get? It makes me feel like at some level for some people food is an addictive substance like drugs. (And also still trying to understand how this gets spread — is it really hyperpalatable foods? Something else? We can watch countries become more obese... Whatever the underlying thing that makes someone susceptible to this is, it does appear to be something a country can acquire)
Clementine
3mo ago
"actually the survivors aren't credible and what happened is that they worked people to death for free labor but with no mass shootings, no mass gassings, no locking people into buildings and setting those buildings on fire, just very polite Germans extracting human labor until it dropped dead" is still holocaust denial actually.
Since the claim about the Holocaust is that Jews were targeted for extermination, not just abused as slaves and "incidentally" dying.
He also mixes in the claim that many fewer Jews died than is accepted by mainstream historians and that these numbers are inflated to suit the Zionist agenda, which is also holocaust denial.
Clementine
3mo ago
Haha I think what happened is I automatically filtered out the red text and could only see the normal text (dark mode). I see it now.
Clementine
3mo ago
Yeah so I kind of was hoping that doing a post about being Jewish wouldn't immediately mean the replies would also include a bunch of "but Jews do rule the world" and "but the Holocaust probably is mostly fake"
I hope other mottizens can take the time to answer you.
For me, my great-grandfather was tortured to death publicly — we know because the local newspaper wrote about it, and after the war someone thought it would be a kindness to send this to my grandmother so she'd know what happened to him (...whether it was a kindness is a matter of opinion. Until that point the family had been attempting to maintain her belief her family might still be alive, even though everyone at that point knew everyone was dead)
All of the rest of her family simply disappeared, entirely. Aunts, uncles, cousins. Everyone except her (hiding in France) and one set of cousins (ardent Zionists, moved to Israel pre-ear). We had a huge family tree and then there was no one on it anymore. Our story is not unique, that's basically every Holocaust survivor story.
You dismiss the testimonies of both perpetrators and victims. Conveniently, because the crime was so massive, we still have additional testimonies left after that, photographic evidence of piles of bodies, photographic evidence of public humiliations and tortures, testimonies from the soldiers who liberated the camps, etc. But because there's a handful of fake accounts you then take alllll the evidence from perpetrators, victims, and bystander witnesses, the evidence submitted in trials, the research, and say "ok but since the opinion it didn't happen is taboo, maybe that opinion is true, because after all since it's taboo we'll only get cover ups because no respectable person will publish that it didn't happen". Which is the kind of argument you can immediately use for any belief you want to hold contradicted by piles of evidence.
Clementine
3mo ago
Actually didn't know there's a block function, where is it?
Clementine
3mo ago
Oh his Natalie Winters comment was obnoxious I refuse to defend that one.
Clementine
3mo ago
Yes, but I'm advocating for the bar to be lowered, not raised. I think raising the bar leads to slippery slope effects where more and more topics become verboten. That's most of the point of me leading with the forum I moderated spiraling downwards, listing what I appreciate about kiwifarms, etc, even while discussing the chilling effect every space inevitably acquires against people not in the status quo audience.
Clementine
3mo ago
But you not only don't want to talk about it but don't even want other people to talk about it?
Since I explicitly said I think it should be allowed to talk about it I guess you misread my post.
Clementine
3mo ago
Eh, I don't think it makes sense to ask people to stay or make special exceptions, but if there's a really high attrition rate it might be a sign something needs to be tweaked. But there's a limit on how effective it's going to be against a beleaguered minority.
Tangentially, as a woman in tech, it makes a big difference to me if I'm the only female programmer in the entire company, and there isn't really anything the company can do about it except hire another braver woman first (or I guess hire three women all together) because I have options for companies that aren't 100% male programmers and I go for those instead.
(I mean I think what draws me here specifically includes having less PC views that I can't voice elsewhere, and I think if you're toeing the PC line 100% then why would you choose to be here and be uncomfortable? And idk how fixable that is but I also don't know how much of that boils down to the PC culture of "cut off anyone with bad opinions" exacerbating the issue by reducing tolerance for being around people who suck)
Re: intractable disagreements: this is a very long effortpost topic for sure, and something I can maybe get around to writing about.
... fwiw I posted my original comment and then went off and curled up in a ball shaking because it was a high stress experience for me posting it, but at least the response hasn't been a bunch of jeering so hey forcing myself to not be conflict avoidant has so far paid off.
Clementine
3mo ago
Well I really do want to write up something — not about the war but related topics — once I get my own thoughts about it sorted out enough.
Clementine
3mo ago
I think in practice it ends up being a lot harder to have very clear black and white rules that can be applied totally neutrally with zero mod judgement involved. Especially on borderline cases. Like yeah ideally you just have crystal clear rules and everyone knows the deal but unless the rules are very very few ("don't get the feds called on us") it still ends up being mod calls.
Clementine
3mo ago
Ywah I (as alluded to) know that being a mod is hard work and a shit job (unpaid forced interaction with the most annoying and worst parts of the forum you love enough to be modding)
And I accept that the balance is not just hard but imo impossible to hit.
That's the kind of thing that sounds good in theory but has at least two major issues I can think of in practice:
On the other hand, perhaps if approached on a clan-by-clan level it could be doable? That's not really very different from village-by-village (because a clan usually stays close together anyway). This is the kind of thing where it would help if I had better knowledge of clan politics, but all I know about it is things I absorb second hand from coworkers etc. Maybe I'll ask my husband later, he's active in hebrew-arabic language exchange groups and might have a better idea.
Anyway basically: I don't think the majority of Israelis would be opposed but that doesn't make it a feasible solution. Maybe someday though, if things develop in a promising direction.
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