ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
Blogger, Christian convert, general strange one. https://shapesinthefog.substack.com/
User ID: 3709
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
We could be the labor movement, or I suppose employees. The way it worked in the past is basically the labor movement lobbied the government to reduce working hours.
You are in an extreme bubble if most people are looking for overtime. Or perhaps we could agitate for higher wages, organize into unions, etc. I'm just saying if AGI is actually going to massively increase productivity, labor should get a share of the pie instead of being turned into a permanently dependent underclass via UBI.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Yeah frankly I think a lot of this sort of behavior is downstream of the breakdown in a shared cultural narrative, or perhaps religion if you want to put it that way. You need some sort of overarching structure to help coordinate elites to a similar goal, even if just ostensibly. Doesn't matter if the elites really believe it, it creates strong incentives for them to act certain ways. (There's still abuse etc, but it's mitigated a lot in my view.)
Once that shared moral framework breaks down, you just get the most base and vulgar stuff like you're describing, where people are nakedly fighting for their own power.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Yes so you hire more people! This would help a lot with the whole AI taking our jobs thing. Sure people might pay a little less, but if everyone makes the shift at the same time this simply would not work.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
I strongly disagree here. You can still get plenty done in 4 days a week. In fact, much of white collar work is busywork and extending the time needed on a task to look productive.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
All hail Great Scott, the appointed mouthpiece of Sophia.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Plenty of people work weekends, but far, far less than a century or two ago.
You are in a humongous bubble if you think working on Saturday or Sunday is anywhere near normal. It's a very small amount of jobs that do this sort of thing. (Unless you mean working weekends but still 5 days a week.)
It's absolutely possible for us to shift the societally acceptable norm to 4 days a week instead of 5.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Thank you! I am surprised by how few people even on the Motte are able to understand this. I would think societal lock-in effects & coordination points would be well understood.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Depends on what you mean by 'human level AI'. I believe they preclude machine consciousness, but I don't know it well enough to explain it. I'd recommend the book The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss if you want an intro to classical theistic metaphysics.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
What is this actually supposed to do? If you want to work 4 days a week, 6 hours a day, you already can.
You actually cannot in most of the white collar world, it's extremely inflexible. Also, it's supposed to increase human flourishing and give us more time to spend on things we want to do! Ideally help people grow.
Imagine this attitude back when work was 7 days a week, 12 hour days. Work is a necessity, ideally we live as well or perhaps work on projects more aligned to our souls when we have more free time.
I do agree that there's always more work to do. I think our modern economy doesn't value the type of work left to be done very well, namely spiritual / emotional / community work.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
The pattern seems to play out time and time again - Scott's last post about China made me want to scream something. Where is the reason to think that AI is so militarily and economically significant at all? What if this is all nonsense? Isn't this all based on a vision of AI technology that has no justification in reality?
AI and techno-futurism in general are the dominant religion of our times. They aren't seen as a religion because the worshipers ignore metaphysics and fundamental axioms. So yes, it's based on a religious vision a lot of the time.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Interesting given that the trades are the least impacted by AI. I suppose I'm thinking white collar work should be implementing some of this.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Don't think this is true at all. We can always find uses for humans, even if it's just serving others. Big disagree.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Would've been a great idea, but yes far too smart and forward thinking for the U.S. Government to actually implement... sigh.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
High praise coming from mister Count! Yes to me it seems obviously far more elegant than the frankly idiotic arguments for UBI that often get bandied about by otherwise very smart people.
Interesting, so you think that this idea is unpopular because it would basically increase the amount of internal competition in corporate hierarchies?
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
I'm thinking about the culture war around AI, specifically the whole UBI debate. If AI truly does take over a lot of human work, there's a lot of people who are savagely agitating for a UBI on one side, saying we'll be post work. The other side of course says no that's not how it works, besides we aren't even close to being able to afford that. The left (generally) takes the former, while the right generally takes the latter.
What I'm surprised by is why nobody has so far mentioned what, to me, seems the obvious compromise - we just shorten the work week! As our forefathers did forcing a 5 day, 8 hour work week, why don't we continue there? Go down to a 4 day work week, and/or shorten standard working hours to 6 per day?
If AI truly will obviate the need for a lot of work, how is this not the more rational solution than trying to magically create a UBI out of money we don't have? How come this idea has barely even entered the discourse? I have been talking and thinking about AI unemployment for years and never once have heard someone argue for this compromise.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Just bought Baldurs Gate on the recs of this forum. Looking forward to some cozy gaming this winter.
I had to put down Silksong, just kept getting too frustrated playing it. Was fun for a while though.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Ahh that's a shame. I would love to join you all once we (God willing) have kids. Sounds just like I want to do with my own.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Which martial art do you practice?
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Interesting! I was initially attracted to the faith due to the social technology discussion, but over time Christ's love is what fully won me over.
If it helps, I absolutely believe that the fact that God loves us personally is the most unique and shocking thing about Christianity. I was healed of a horrible set of chronic pain and illness issues in large part by coming to Christ.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Idk man I have seen prideful faith, and it’s bad. I don’t see that here.
I think in reality it’s just culture shock from seeing Christians who actually deeply believe speak. Most Christians in the modern world are in name only sadly.
Genuinely not trying to be condescending here but at least imo I haven’t seen much bragging or holier-than-thou. Usually it’s people nerding out about weird historical or theological points. Not talking about how often they pray or that they met this Saint or elder or got to touch this relic or icon, went to this or that monastery, etc.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Indeed. You see if very clearly if you work in big corporate.
This is why I'm extremely skeptical AI will be "deleting all jobs" anytime soon.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
Lol I thought of you when I read it. Exactly!!!
And no problem. I try to post the link here over on the open thread every now and then just to make sure folks know we're here.
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
How would you have imagined history playing out differently with Islam and Buddhism as the major world religions?
ThomasdelVasto
Κύριε, ποίησόν με ὄργανον τῆς ἀγάπης σου
1mo ago
I hope you can appreciate that an atheist watching a thread devolve into bible study would be miffed.
Why would you be miffed? Atheists and agnostics regularly talk about AI, transhumanism, and all sorts of other things here as well. I genuinely don't get why this is a problem, or makes this place seem like a hugbox?
Just because this type of convo is allowed?
For managers and chefs, sure. That's nowhere near the majority of workers. That's also a norm that could be changed with enough pressure from organized labor.
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