Throwaway05
12hr ago
The individual instances can seem superficially similar but the overall context couldn't be more different. For instance you can make the argument that both were killed by the Dems making it seem like all kinds of unethical and dangerous protesting is safe, appropriate, and at times even mandatory.
This is simply not true but the treatment of leftist protestors doing dangerous things, rioting, and even directly harming people...all makes the case that doing crazy shit is reasonable and appropriate.
In this frame they both were killed by insane leftist protesting norms, but one was killed by accepting lies from her own side, and the other was killed by accepting lies told by the other side.
That's pretty different.
This is also why I have no tolerance for complaints about January 6th - the left burned down billions of dollars in property and everyone was told that was fine. "Oh not for you, just for us" is not a compelling counterargument. If you don't like scary protests don't support scary protests.
Throwaway05
1d ago
Does Mystery Men count?
Throwaway05
1d ago
This is exactly why policing is hard.
Throwaway05
1d ago
Supposedly non-PVP players are matched with non-PVP players and vice versa, which helps.
Throwaway05
2d ago
Fair enough - just keep in mind if you actually do those basics you'll already be doing much better than the average person (who does not).
Throwaway05
2d ago
My assertion is that an agitated mob of protestors is more of a lethal threat outside of a vehicle than cops arresting you is.
You can absolutely alter the threat level by doing things like leaning out of your car and shouting racial slurs, or threatening/assaulting the police with a deadly weapon (potentially by accident in this case, but still). The baseline is important however.
Throwaway05
2d ago
I feel like this is missing the difference between "these people could rip me from my car and do whatever they want, it's an angry mob, bad stuff has happened before and I could be next" and "ripped from the car and arrested" in terms of threat provided by what is happening outside the vehicle.
Throwaway05
2d ago
I mean these federal agencies are designed to operate with local LEO support, but in blue states that is refused. That causes problems.
Furthermore ICE is the victim of an organized protest movement that has a specific goal of making it impossible for them to do their job safely. Well.....it works.
Throwaway05
2d ago
As a statistician, gay men are pretty much the only demo that are honest-ish on surveys about sex and relationships.
If you mean self identifying gay men, maybe - but a lot of "gay" men don't identify that way and will lie a great deal.
Throwaway05
2d ago
What's in it for them?
Some relevant reading -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down-low_(sexual_slang)
This is why medicine uses "MSM" (men who have sex with men) because of people who do that, have corresponding risk factors, but deny gayness.
Throwaway05
2d ago
This is obviously going to put them more on edge, raise the threshold for proper professionalism, and increase the likelihood of something unfortunate happening.
Yeah, people need to listen to the audio around the events, it is STRESSFUL (even sitting at home). Raise the temperature, make the situation uncontrolled, make communication hard.....and communication is hard.
This also matters for securing the scene after the shooting.
Throwaway05
2d ago
He could also have shot to wound (or indeed intimidate) rather than shot to kill.
Shooting to wound is not a thing.
I've seen patients come in with over 10 holes and be fine.
I've seen patients get a superficial seeming abdominal or leg wound and bleed out.
Any gunshot wound is potentially fatal, even "less than lethal" weapons like tasers are potentially lethal. That's why we use the euphemistic language.
If any self-defense or law enforcement group advocates for "shoot to maim" I'd love to see it.
Throwaway05
2d ago
If you are interested in optimizing your recovery start with actual common sense things first. Follow activity instructions. Seriously engage with any PT/OT. Sleep. Avoid drugs/alcohol/smoking. Eat healthy.
Almost nobody actually does these things but doing them results in a massive decrease in recovery time.
Do the hard stuff.
Throwaway05
2d ago
Yeah, just meaning to say that some of us know way more about this than we wish to.
Throwaway05
2d ago
frequently from people who openly endorse violence against protesters.
2Way had a brief interview with what appears to be a very distraught neighbor.
Now that you can find somewhat functional mainstream media again we should be using it more, the internet was only the best choice when MSM was dead.
Throwaway05
2d ago
I imagine you are going somewhere specific with this line of questioning but it is worth noting that a lot of gay guys will just explicitly tell you this sort of thing, even without you asking.
Even at work.
Throwaway05
3d ago
If people have evidence of this, they should present it. So far, I've seen people assume this out of instinctive deferrence to authority, but I haven't seen it substantiated (and, again, given ICE's history of lying to justify their undisciplined and aggressive behavior, I see no reason to trust them).
Did you look?
I saw footage on 2way of an eye witness making this claim. She could be wrong, but it isn't just speculation and defensive reporting by agencies.
Throwaway05
3d ago
In support of this - I've seen reporting indicating that the ICE crew was followed around and harassed for hours while trying to carry out operations, with further witnesses stating this woman was a part of that.
Throwaway05
3d ago
I think your points 3 and 4 need to be the most important part here, but nobody is going to pay any attention to them (in the broader political conversation).
The media, social media, and legislative environment are pushing people into uncontrolled interactions with the police that make "bad" and "accidental" interactions nearly inevitable.
Uncontrolled interaction with potentially violent individuals (accidental or otherwise) is an incredibly hard task to manage safely, add death threats, actual assassination attempts, and nearby braying crowds and it becomes essentially impossible to do the job without bad shit happening. It's only a matter of time, and time ran out.
If you don't want people to get shot by ICE stop encouraging your voting base/viewers to do shit that's going to get them shot by ICE.
"Is law enforcement justified in whatever violent action they took" is a different question than "did you encourage these people to do shit that got people killed."
I am tired of commentariat and the general political conversation ignoring this part of the equation.
Showing up to police action and making the scene uncontrolled and dramatically increasing the likelihood of bad outcomes is not ethical protesting and is ineffective protesting unless you accidentally martyr someone in the "right" way.
All of this also applies to inner city policing and the other hot button topics.
Throwaway05
5d ago
Again, most people hearing that statement both agree and disagree with it to some extent, and have a variable level of feeling across their lifespan both acutely and chronically (ex: I'm pissed at my kids right now so I say X) and also have a wide disconnect between how they feel about it and what they are saying in public.
It is a sliding scale of both interpretation of the statement and also of disconnect between private and public presentation of beliefs.
Scissor statements are more binary Yes or No, Left or Right, Up or Down.
Just because something creates argument doesn't mean it is a scissor statement.
Throwaway05
5d ago
This is a remarkably good scissor statement, in that I find the people being mean to him insufferable, and even inasmuch as I might find the Sillicon Valley Crypto Guy of it all mockable, I still have an innate rage at people dismissing him as a shitty dad.
I don't think this is a scissor statement, I think it's a different (and more traditional) social failure mode.
Plenty of things in life everyone knows but can't say, in an increasingly feminized society this is way worse.
It's the "all my girlfriends are perfect 10s dressed impeccably all the time and even look great without makeup!" bullshit.
Yes having kids sucks. It is also great. Society has decided some parts of having kids you are allowed to complain about and some you are not. Society has decided nerds are fair game to criticize. Etc etc.
This is just a matter of what thoughts are approved to be voiced in public, and what types of people are allowed to be supported.
The most scissorish bit is the way it triggers a bunch of other conversations, but that also happens with "you can't say Sara looks fat in that dress!" "But she clearly does! She weighs over 300 pounds! And she asked!"
Throwaway05
5d ago
Absolutely not, in the U.S. a lot of our critical infrastructure is falling apart without any intervention at all.
Throwaway05
6d ago
but there is also Nick Land's point about "Dr. Gno" - something along the lines of "with every x years' advance in technology, the IQ required to destroy the world drops by a point".
Ugh, I've heard about this before but had forgotten about it. Thank you for the reminder haha.
Throwaway05
6d ago
Most terroristic violence is memetic in nature. The popularity of various attacks goes up and down acting as trends. The same goes for lone wolf attacks.
Sometimes exceptional actors (such as OBL) come up with a novel threat.
It's still pretty wise not to give anyone ideas, and if you read the forum long enough (and pay attention) you'll see people mention something or not mention specific examples. Anybody with a brain should be able to look at the history of mass shootings and be able to come up with something (thankfully the people who do these things generally don't). With some creativity you should be able to look at some wide categories like physical infrastructure and cyber security and come up with some ways, some of which a single person could implement. Mass general economic disruption with or without loss of life would be even easier.
Even scarier is the fact that state actors have plenty of ways to grossly impact the health of the planet (the most obvious and famous is nuking the shit out of stuff), and at least one way could be theoretically implemented right now by a big enough PI at any of the major research labs.*
I wouldn't recommend thinking about it over much and I don't want that juju out in the world, but an asshole wrote a whole SF book trilogy about similar problems so maybe someone notices and snaps and we all die.
Lone man with a grudge has plenty of options. Let's not make them clear.
*slow moving death of all life on earth that wouldn't be solvable with current technology but maybe we'd be able to fix it with enough motivation.
I think this type of response from the community is primarily driven by a certain type of leftist poster who exists here, on the rest of the internet, and even in real life... who just does not engage in reality based thinking and every time something happens they spin out a narrative, it's never true, they update only if piled on tremendously, and then they move on to the next excuse.
As an example all the woke-trolling here in the wake of the event leaning on "oh no, she's definitely here randomly and is scared of these unknown masked figures" as if it is as all reasonable to believe that given all of the interviews that were available from the moment the shooting happened (and common sense). But if you lie like that you will convince people and some people will never update (see: Rittenhouse shooting).
And if it's not lying then its believing something that is clearly not true (in the sense that it makes little sense) and was untrue last time and the time before that, and therefore becomes indistinguishable from deliberate trolling or excess blindness.
It makes me mad just writing this comment, which is why people so aggressively pile on.
It is the belief of many moderates and conservatives that the woke-left live in a world where things like reason, consistency, and common sense do not apply....and it's frustrating to see and results in piling on.
Left leaning comments on these sorts of things are almost always objectively wrong. A half dozen people have to have "shooting to maim" explained to them every time a cop shoots someone.
If you don't want these people to get dogpiled make them be correct more often about the facts.
From there we can get to the murkier business of ethics and so on.
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