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ZorbaTHut


				

				

				

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joined 2022 September 01 11:36:40 UTC
				

				

				

				

				

				

					
				

				

				
				
				

				
User ID: 9


				
				
				

			

		

	














	


		


			



	

		

			

			

				

					

						

							
						

						

							
							

								
ZorbaTHut


								

								

								
								
									
								
								
								
								

								
							
					
 
				


				

				
				
				

				

					16 followers  

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					joined 2022 September 01 11:36:40 UTC
				


				
					

					
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User ID: 9


					
					
					
				

			


					

						
					



		

	

 











			
			

			
			

			




	


		

			
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	 Hot Bump Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
	



		

	






	

		
		

		
		
	

	

  







		

			
			
				[META] A Whole Host Of Completed Minor Changes
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I've heard nothing from the admins since we closed it, and we do actually post quality-contribution roundups there. I wouldn't put it past them to yank it away from us, but I also don't want to spend much time on it, so that's a risk I'm willing to take.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Yeah, I think I agree with you; I'd be much more fine with "I feel like Cleon Peterson is a leftist creep" but I think this is too far. Gonna talk to the mods and see what they say.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Hah, I bet that was a removed post that we're not detecting properly. Will fix, thanks!


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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I'm actually really curious how that happened; when we left, I changed it to Post Every 10,000 Weeks because there wasn't a Disable checkbox and I didn't want to delete it until we had things solidly working elsewhere. Then I forgot about it, of course. But, I mean, I haven't done the exact math on this, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't been ten thousand weeks since we left. Maybe I ran into some weird overflow bug?


Anyway, post removed, recurring posts actually deleted.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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The problem with settings is that they dramatically complicate testing; we're already not doing a good job with testing, adding more settings just makes it worse. This can be justified in some cases but it's not an automatic thing.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Are you doing it on mobile or on desktop?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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The reason would be that you've found a bug :V


I'll see what I can do!


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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Whoops, yeah. I should get rid of that or move it or something. Issue added.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Yeah, that's fair. And honestly, this did all happen before the culture war kicked off at full force - I'd have to check to get an exact date, but I'd say 2014 or so. We were not in the same climate of fear that we arguably are today.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I mean, I get the joke, but that doesn't really solve the issue, it just sort of snarkily bypasses it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Thinking it over, I think part of the reason I don't have an issue with it is, ironically, because of the close working relationship. If there's someone I'm interacting with in a professional capacity every day or two, yeah, I don't have any problem making a little room in my brain for pronoun and name; hell, I'm already making some room in my brain for their name, I've just got to change which name is stored in there. (And for what it's worth, they passed reasonably well, so the pronoun wasn't a big deal either aside from the transition period.)


Whereas if it's someone I only intereacted with every few months and every time I talked to them they had a new pronoun/name, my answer would be "dude, pick one and stick with it, or at least stop bugging me about it". And I can kinda understand if someone who hadn't worked with her more closely had more trouble with the transition.


I think nicknames work the same way. There's a few people I've worked with who, quite frankly, I never found out the "real" name of, because they kept using a nickname. But that's okay! As far as I'm concerned, that was their name, so, hey, no sweat.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Oh, absolutely. I'm thinking about it because I want the option to do so, not because I think doing so is mandatory.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I do honestly like that. I don't generally want to make a game that's about discrimination, but if I decide I do, I think that's a really good way to do it.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Eh, this really depends on the person. About ten years ago one of my co-workers announced they were trans and asked us to use new pronouns and names for them, but acknowledged that we'd been working together for years and we'd slip up occasionally. So we did our best, but we slipped up occasionally, and she corrected us when we did, and we said "shucks, sorry", and she laughed and said "don't worry about it", and we gradually got better at it.


There's definitely people who are dicks about this but there's also people who are not dicks about this.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I do have a story I'm tinkering with that has an alien species who use gendered pronouns for indications of authority. Biologically, their males are mobile tool-users, their females are mammoth sessile immobile creatures who are used as housing and who act as leaders. This particular hierarchy hasn't remained intact through spaceflight, but the terminology has stuck; every member of their species uses "she" to refer to superiors, to homes, and to leaders, while every member uses "he" to refer to subordinates, tools, and workers. This also means that gender is contextual; the captain of a scout ship refers to their ship as "she", the commander of the fleet refers to their ship as "he".


None of this even has anything to do with the story, I was just staying up late and writing paragraphs about random aliens that didn't mean much to the plot. It just sorta happened.


(part of this is also so I can punt on figuring out what the hell gender the other species are; the story takes place from the captain's perspective, and this lets me just use "he" for everyone, even the insectoid hivemind and the sentient dimensional rift.)


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Could you elaborate on if the trans-ness going away is kind of like a mental category thing, where onlookers know they are trans but it is as unremarkable as knowing someone's blood type; or if trans-ness going away refers to empirical predictions, where onlookers can't tell if they are trans?




I think, with the Ideal Trans Model, it's "onlookers can't tell if they are trans". I think the sort of archetypical trans person wishes they were born in their chosen gender and they never experienced the other gender in the first place; showing up in the wrong body was a bug in the genetic code and they would rather that bug never have existed.




As for your trans allegory, what about the Matrix, or plastic surgery, or dyeing ones hair? Are these too mundane to be trans allegories?




I guess I'm not sure how this ends up practically working out. I don't think hair dye works; it's just too common. Plastic surgery isn't a bad allegory but it has similar issues, in that you can't tell someone got plastic surgery unless it's really obvious.


The Matrix is a pretty big plot thing to pin a game around, although there have been some cool ideas regarding that in this thread.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Contrast with the Hogwarts Legacy character that stood out like a sore thumb, not so much because she was a non-passing transwoman, but because the HP universe has transformation magic, and if that exists, why would any transwoman not avail themselves of it?




I've had one game in mind for a while that plays some kind of dangerous games with gender and race, in that there are random events where the racial makeup of the character's party is actually kinda important on a gameplay level. I think this is doable without it being a complete nightmare!


I was never able to work sexuality or trans into the mix, though. At least for sexuality, I was going to say "look, they are all afraid for their lives, there is not time to get naked, that's just never going to come up".


For trans, though, I figured my best answer was "yeah, trans people exist in this world. medical science is really good though, you just go get a shot, then you have, like, a really bad flu for like a week, it sucks, it's miserable. once it's done you've just changed sex. not a big deal. nobody brings it up because it's not relevant."


I seem to recall there was a weird issue like that in the Baldur's Gate remix, where you can literally get a girdle of gender change, but for some reason you can't just give it to the trans person to solve their problem. I admit it's extra-weird when games try to make it a Political Thing when it isn't even compatible with the universe.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Well, in some ways, that's sorta the point, right? Imagine I decide I'm going to turn 1% of my NPCs trans, and I end up with "that weapon shopkeeper in the third village". How do I make them trans without making a big deal out of it? Is there a way?


Going back to Borderlands 2, which I honestly think did a marvelous job of gay characters, there's an audio tape you can find where a female character casually refers to her wife. Again, it's not emphasized, it's just sorta dropped in there and the world moves on. I can do that in a video game by having some characters be married and having this one character married to a same-sex partner. But what's the equivalent of this for trans people?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Yeah, Celeste is a tough example for exactly that reason, and while I didn't mention it in the above post, I did have it in mind. It's kind of an example of how you can be about as careful as possible and still make it turn into a Big Political Thing. I'm not really sure how to do better than that with humans.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


if you take the claims of trans supporters seriously, a trans-like shapeshifter would claim to be one particular sex regardless of what body they are in at the moment, like someone who insists on being referred to as long-haired even after shaving their hair.




This is sort of getting off the hypothetical, but from my perspective I think it's kind of unarguable that not everyone approaches sex the same way. Some people think it's vitally important, some people think it's largely irrelevant and pointless. I say this as someone who considers themselves agender, in the "why do all of you care about this anyway, sheesh" sense, married to someone who feels very strongly that she's female.


I think (sorry in advance, this sentence is going to be a trainwreck) that anyone who thinks that everyone feels the same way on any subject should really rethink their position. Diversity is a third rail of a word right now, but regardless, I truly do believe that part of the beauty of humanity is our intellectual diversity.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


In short: why?




Because if I can prove it can't be done, then I can use that to explain why people don't do it. Because if I can prove it can be done, then I can do it and gently show people how to politics better.


Because to me, "the existence of trans people" isn't propaganda any more than putting angels or nazis or bikers or forest rangers in a game is propaganda. Having things in a game does not imply support for those things, nor does it imply disapproval of those things. Having a larger palette makes for more options, which lets me make better games. And the more ways I can use parts of that palette, the better off I am.


Because it's a challenge.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
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tugs at collar nervously Ahahaha, well I'm sure this won't apply to me at all, not like I only tread the well-worn ground of a couple of the same topics! Hahaha!




For what it's worth, I browsed your post history and I cannot even tell which well-worn ground you think you're constantly treading :V There's Hinduism, Hunter Biden, trans issues, and you're even talking to some weirdo about Star Trek. Who even makes posts about Star Trek today? Bizarre.


I would not worry about this at all.




You may regret this decision




I am simultaneously excited and terrified to see whatever people use this for.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I actually think that's clever and I like that. And then of course nobody really brings it up, it's just "hey, yeah, go for it."


(One of the things that was in my notes for that post that didn't make it in was my then-4-year-old daughter deciding she wanted to play Monster Hunter World, and in character creation, decided to make a middle-aged black man, which I admit I thought was kind of funny. But I also don't think it meant anything, she just thought he looked cool, which, in fairness, he did. So, hey, go for it kid, have fun.)


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
But that's kinda the problem, that isn't even a good equivalent. Uhura is a good example of a reasonable-but-not-exaggerated-either-positively-or-negatively black woman (at least, not exaggerated any more than anyone in the series was), whereas the hypothetical stubble-wearing transwoman is a negative exaggeration. The neutral-or-normal-TV-exaggeration of a trans person just looks like an attractive member of their preferred gender.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Hah, I like how Uhura doesn't even take offense there.


These all feel like really good examples of doing it right, honestly. Yes, if you're pulling a character in from ancient times, they're going to have some confusion about a black woman serving on board the bridge, of course they are! But that doesn't need to be the thing the episode is about, and in fact probably shouldn't be. Allegory, not sledgehammer.


. . . also that's a pretty funny line in response to Sulu.