self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
I'm a transhumanist doctor. In a better world, I wouldn't need to add that as a qualifier to plain old "doctor". It would be taken as granted for someone in the profession of saving lives.
At any rate, I intend to live forever or die trying. See you at Heat Death!
Friends:
A friend to everyone is a friend to no one.
User ID: 454
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
38m ago
Correct. No notes. A Primary Care Physician is the solution for most cases of depression, or at least they can send you to a better shrink than I am.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
39m ago
The psychosis risk is absolutely real. It worried me then, and worries me now. When I signed up for the psilocybin, I felt like I had little left to lose. My good fortune in the form of immediately relief emboldened me, I know that, n=1, that the stuff works for me. That gave me the courage to try LSD later.
For what it's worth, the risk absolutely depends on factors you can modify: the specific drug, the dosage, set and setting. A reliable tripsitter. Another medication (probably a benzo) to abort the experience if it gets out of hand.
Unfortunately, that only reduces, and does not eliminate the risk. If you have a family history of psychosis, are unusually anxious or have experienced breaks with reality? You really might want to reconsider that. That's without getting into the physical health risks, which are small but real. Don't give this stuff to your granny without asking a doctor.
Like I've said, if you want to be treated for depression, you want either ketamine or psilocybin. But it depends on badly broken you already are, and your risk appetite. I don't recommend it lightly, it should be something close to a last resort.
You're welcome!
For what it's worth, I don't usually recommend psychedelics to anyone who wouldn't benefit from them for therapeutic reasons. If you're happy sticking to coffee, then you're still happy, which is what counts. Some people don't need pharmaceutical assistance to be content in their own skin, and I'm both deeply jealous and happy for them.
I have always had a keen interest in psychedelics, for the sake of curiosity at first. But I still kept away for a very long time, because I was scared of the potential consequences. When I became depressed, and the standard medication proved less than helpful, I had far less to lose and more to gain from trying. So far, it hasn't bitten me in the ass too hard, but you never know. I don't want this to become a habit. For you? I don't know. I wouldn't tell people to take up vaping either, even if I am nicotine dependent (blame Gwern). If you do ever try, stick to low doses and work your way up.
Anyway, I'm curious about the 'thinking alien thoughts without language' part. I know you werent compos mentis at the time, but I'm interested in what the actual meat and potatoes of these thoughts are. Like, if they were sensations, were they from your own home or totally removed from your environment? Did they have meanings you could understand in retrospect, or was your mind just forcing greater meaning onto random thoughts and stimuli
Good question. I have a nigh-omnipresent inner monologue running. It's always there when I go looking, but it might be subdued or absent if I'm very focused. I think mostly in words, even if I'm not outright aphantasic. It's just what's natural for me. There really is an inner voice speaking as I type this, composing his thoughts. It's present when I read things too.
But I don't want to overstate this. I can have emotions that are never verbalize, unless I choose to inspect them. I can do spatial calculations without having to put them into words, even if I'm a serious wordcel who uses it to shore up their weak shape-rotation.
For a good while, perhaps half an hour: that inner monologue was absent. Gone. I'm quite confident. I noticed it, even when I didn't have the words to express it. I just knew, like when you stub your toe and feel pain without having to think "ouch that hurts". I knew I was being beckoned by something that felt like it came from outside my body (even if this almost certainly isn't true). I knew I had to resist, even if I didn't have the words to formulate the desire for resistance. I'm being careful, and will remind you that "knowing" something and it being true are different things. I have little reason to believe I was actually contacted by a deity.
Instead of words, I had unprocessed, formless thoughts that immediately manifested as visual hallucinations or simple intuition without a verbal component . Not the kaleidoscopes or fractals, thought those were present before and after. I legitimately saw the tendrils, and knew what they represented in my consciousness. Not as vivid as reality, but real enough, and all I could process. A clear step up from simply imagining seeing tendrils, at least for me.
At the peak of the trip, I was in a dark and cool room with loud music on. No other external stimuli. I wasn't even paying attention to the music at the peak, it was simply there. Everything of note seemed produced by purely internal processes. Later, I was being actively influenced by the lyrics and emotional associations produced by the songs, but not then, at the peak.
I also took regular, time stamped notes for most of the trip. I strongly remember them being very accurate when writing them, I had no reason to lie to myself. I also have the memories, but the intensity and meaning has faded.
I can only apologize, the most annoying part of a psychedelic trip is that human language is a terrible means of conveying qualia. I can't really make you feel what I felt more than I can make you imagine a new color by text alone. Even my own memory doesn't capture the lived experience as it was happening.
(I think that new color thing is possible in theory, but that's a long story. I just can't, in person, right now, make you feel what it's like. Even I'm merely holding on to a gestalt impression and often consulting notes where recall fails me.)
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2hr ago
I recognize a fell traveler, albeit one with the kind of scars I really don't want to acquire. Yup, that is precisely the kind of stuff that I was and am terrified of, but hey, you're here. You're talking. You know there's a problem. You give me the impression of having a functional life. I find that reassuring!
If you'll forgive the wordplay, self_made_human is no more, and you're now self_remade_human
In an unfortunate sense, it is impossible to say for sure if I'm the same person I was before and after psychedelics. But I genuinely don't think I've broken anything I'll miss. I feel like roughly the same person, a little happier, maybe, a little less emotionally reactive in a way that doesn't amount to apathy. If I start acting really weird, or even subtly off, I suppose enough people know me well enough to mention it. That is true both online and off, I hope.
In a very real sense, we're all Ships of Theseus, and always undergoing routine and unexpected maintenance. I don't feel anxious about going to bed or getting anesthesia, because I don't seem to change very much. I don't feel too bad about aging, except for all the physical health stuff that will inevitably pop up unless we find a cure. I think the version of me that was 2 years old has only a little in common with the man I am today, but I'm glad he grew up anyway. Similarly, I'm willing to do a lot of growing up (in the transhumanist sense), and I am not afraid of it as long as I get to call the shots and, preferably, make some backups along the way. I think a much smarter and wiser version of me that preserves the same values and desires is... me. A better me.
If it interests you, I just posted a full writeup of the experience on the front page. I doubt the phenomenological aspects are new to you, but I do go into more detail about my experiences and my takeaways from them.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
I don't think it's the worst idea, but from a moderator perspective: Jesus Christ their tooling is awful. And as a mere user, the current reddit mobile experience is obnoxious.
I would reserve/endorse a return for very specific circumstances, such as if this community is truly dying (it's not). Or perhaps we could start posting things that aren't just the monthly AAQCs there, maybe smaller discussion threads that show evidence of life and are a springboard to the site.
We genuinely are doing pretty fine, even if we don't have the activity that the sub had at its peak. If I had the opportunity to meet Scott in person as planned, I'd have begged for him to give us even a small shout-out in a relevant Open Thread.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
3hr ago
For what it's worth, a moderate dose of a benzodiazepine reduces the intensity of an LSD trip immediately. I don't know how functional you'd feel afterwards, but it's an option.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4hr ago
I did end up hanging out with friends and mostly enjoying it. I've got a full essay almost cooked in the oven, if you want, I can ping you when it's out. Might even be tonight, given my observed preference for procrastination when it comes to studying for my exams.
(I am perhaps unnecessarily scared of the DW, but it strikes me as a bit of a hassle. I'd have to buy crypto, and I live on a visa. Eh, it's an option for the future!?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
4hr ago
I haven't given mescaline much thought, it's probably far harder to acquire outside the Americas. I share your concerns about DMT, and datura is definitely something described in my forensic medicine textbooks for a reason. Nor is dissociation something I enjoy, it happened to me as a very idiosyncratic reaction to a prescribed drug, and it was quite unpleasant to experience.
That's the thing. I don't expect it to be a drastic change, necessarily. Many changes that we/I won't endorse on reflection are gradual and subtle. Becoming religious or spiritual is far from the worst thing that can happen to someone. You seem pretty sane, for what it's worth. I'm not going to call you crazy in a literal or strong sense!
I see high dose or regular usage of psychedelics as carrying an unavoidable risk of both causing a sudden snap and also a risk of "opening" your mind to a degree that I'd rather prefer not to open, mostly due to the risk of my brain falling out. I believe most of the things I believe for very good reason, at least if we're talking about empirical topics and not just ideals or preferences. Think of it like Gandhi in that thought experiment, where he can get a pill that makes him 1% Murder Gandhi in exchange for a million dollars. That 1% MG is more likely to accept the next pill, and so on till he has $100m and a kill count of comparable magnitude.
I see myself as being, in a sense, almost the 0% Gandhi. Each psychedelic I do has a small chance of shifting that, but it's a more probabilistic risk here. I don't think I've drifted so far, but even if you're, say, only 10% as religious/spiritual as a theoretical maximum, that is very far from where I want to be. I think not being depressed is worth, say, $1 million, or a 1% chance of religion, but I'd rather not take the risk if I can help it, which I usually can.
I don't want to relitigate the usual atheism-religion debates, but if you want to explain what made you change your mind, I'm genuinely curious and want to hear it out. FWIW, I have an essay almost ready to post, so if you what to hold off then that's fine too.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
I'll have to check in with Scott Aaronson, but I strongly suspect he hasn't tried that stuff either.
Eh, I wouldn't tell people not to try DMT if they're interested, but it's the polar opposite of what I desire.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
I mean, that's the issue with TLP: everything is narcissism. Or he only cares to write about narcissism. He's insightful, but one note.
I'm genuinely unsure how you could be equally agnostic with regards to both organized religion and empiricism, but hey, better than committing to what I believe is the wrong team here.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
I've been surprised by how difficult it is to find ketamine in Scotland, it's far easier to come by down south. I think that I'm most likely to go through the hassle of an IV infusion on medical grounds, the subjective effects don't appeal to me nearly as much as the benefits for depression. But good to know, I'm open to it!
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
I had nothing important planned for the day, and I managed to mostly pull off the few errands that lurked waiting for me in the evening. But it's not a use and forget drug, and I agree shrooms are more sensible for the psychonaut on a time-crunch. What do you mean by the Big 3? I can infer that's LSD and shrooms, but the third one?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
5hr ago
Sal like the sul in sullied. Rush-D.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
9hr ago
Perhaps. It's still more likely to just become a bit wooly, touchy feely and "spiritual but not religious". I would not identify with a version of me that sincerely believes in a deity for anything but incredibly strong empirical evidence. I'd think the old me was, in an important sense, partly dead. Not fully dead. That option beats true psychosis and definitely beats real death.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
9hr ago
I am interested in trying ketamine, preferably I since it's more effective for depression.
The unfortunate side effect, for me, is that I spend a good deal of time on most ketamine trips thinking about how Nick Land was right about everything.
Perhaps it's unfortunate that I often think Nick Land is right when sober. To be precise, more directionally correct than any other contemporary philosopher or writer. I hate the man and his ideology, I don't want the future he imagines and dreams of to come to fruition. I want something human to survive into the far future.
Alas, I must still concede that it's a very real possibility that the techno-capital singularity consumes us whole. It won't surprise you to learn that I spent a good while on the trip worrying about the Singularity. I do that while sober too.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
10hr ago
Huh. That's an interesting outcome, some anesthetics are known to have dissociative properties, but I don't think that's quite what I experienced. Which one was it, if I may ask (or if you happen to know, it's not usually disclosed specifically because most patients don't care)?
I wasn't fighting parts of my self, or my body, per se. Most of the time, the voice in my head was gone, or the volume was dialed down significantly. This has happened to me before on or after psychedelics, and is something I carefully noted during the experience. I always have an inner monologue, at least when I check for it. It might be damped down or absent when I'm extremely focused, but how would I know?
At the very peak, I don't think I was thinking in words, just visual metaphors. I used words to write (because I was able to do so live, albeit not with great grammar), and that stream of text was my stream of thought at a certain point. Very hard to explain unless you've been there. I was literally typing at the speed I was thinking (the latter definitely slower than usual) and exactly as I thought. Not quite the same as what I do when sober, where I'm usually at least planning ahead and have a general thesis in mind.
My body usually felt heavy and leaden. Then it got lighter as the peak came down slowly. No sense that parts of it were alien or in conflict with me, which you'd see with dissociation/depersonalization.
Are you trying to kill me or drive me insane?
I mean, you probably are, but you're usually more subtle about it. DMT is very low on the list of substances to try; I don't speak Machine Elvish, not even the LOTR kind. If they start talking shit about "universal love", I'm going to pull out a baseball bat.
Edit: I know it's unlikely to literally kill me. It's just not what I'm looking for, I don't want to lose contact with reality or risk truly mind altering or gnostic experience.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
16hr ago
I agree with you. That's my understanding of my the mechanics, though note that there's also a general increase in neuroplasticity as well as evidence of some neurogenesis.
In predictive processing terms: psychedelics relax your priors, which helps unstick the stuck ones (like depression).
For what it's worth, I was always fascinated by psychedelics even as a teen, and wanted to try them recreationally. But I avoided them for a decade, because I was too afraid of the risk. Then my depression got really bad, and I felt the clinical trial was a good shout before I resorted to IV ketamine and ECT (very annoying to get in my parts of Scotland). It worked wonders, and gave me more confidence that I could push things.
Uh.. Turns out there's a limit to how far I wanted to push things. I might try LSD again, but never at this dose. I've had my fun. I like my sanity. If you do specifically want a treatment for depression, the evidence for psilocybin is much more robust. You've probably read my blog post, but if you haven't, it's in my posts.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
16hr ago
Every time I see someone using the YouTube app instead of a modded client like Vanced (which I use and love), I die a little inside. It's probably better to use the browser at that point, even on mobile.
Uh.. I have multiple answers to depression. I know psilocybin worked the previous time. I could have gone for IV ketamine or ECT. I know for a fact that I do not need religion to be happy, and that becoming religious has a very real risk of making me unhappy as well as, in a very real sense, delusional and insane.
My ego exists for a reason. I am fond of being mostly myself. The parts of me I wish to keep are present when both when I'm happy and when I'm sad, and that's a fact that's clearly documented in my notes. If the only way to live is to trick myself into religious belief? You better hope to ask when I've got a literal gun to my head. I am not read to compromise my epistemics for happiness except for a very large value of the latter and a small amount of the former.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
I'm sorry man. I genuinely am. Even during the experience (or very very shortly after the peak), I was grappling with multiple existential crises:
- Was the very vivid and literal visual metaphor real? Was it actually a "choice" to reject endless meaning and hedonium, or just my mind play-acting a decision I'd made well in advance while coming up with an entertaining visualization of it? I genuinely do not know. The opposite felt like a very real possibility. It terrified me.
- I understood the impermanence of qualia, the meaning of the self being a series of continuous snapshots. I vividly remember (and have live notes) of a version of me that was terrified of dying and being replaced by another me. He was practically screaming and begging to stay alive, or at least to be remembered. Then, a little later, a version of me that was more pragmatic but also meta to a degree that annoys even sober me: he had the self-awareness to find this all amusing while hoping he'd be gone soon. He got his wish.
- I understood why the brain's sober state is conserved the way it is. It's the only way to be functional, even if there's some wiggle room. Breaking something and being stuck like that? I'd call depression a broken brain too, but I'm not willing to go that far.
I don't know if you ever had a choice in the matter. I don't know if I did either. But I am so lucky to have made the choice of going the route I would have committed myself to going well in advance. Screwing with my brain's chemistry is pragmatically useful for therapeutic purposes and also... fun. But it's not a solution to metaphysics. If I claimed to have come up with one after the trip, my notes tell myself that I should consider the original me gone, maybe for good.
I hope you're doing okay. I wanted to be changed too, but I'm clearly the annoying kind of person who is just as analytical and self-scrutinizing when sober as they are zooted. I'm happy/sad about that. Uh, now that I think about it, I do understand the limits of language as a communication tool/expression of qualia better. That perhaps does constitute a change. Words genuinely cannot express the conflict within at the time. Good luck to you, if there is some residual damage, we will likely be able to cure you, speaking from a medical perspective. That is a promise I am mostly confident science can cash.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
17hr ago
There but for the grace of God the Flying Spaghetti Monster go I. I've seen other people lose it with after using psychedelics, or outright go insane. And more who have become "soft" spiritual and woo-ish. I'm not saying I'd rather die than end up like that, but it's very, very low on the list.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
It happens to rhyme with Salman Rushdie.
Thank you, that means a lot to me. The first time I had LSD, I was rather disappointed that the music didn't sound nearly as good as it did on MDMA or psilocybin. Turns out that an unfortunately high dose, with or without THC, makes all the difference. Still didn't lose myself in it in the way I think you mean, but it was very, very good and affected my thoughts greatly.
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