self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
I'm a transhumanist doctor. In a better world, I wouldn't need to add that as a qualifier to plain old "doctor". It would be taken as granted for someone in the profession of saving lives.
At any rate, I intend to live forever or die trying. See you at Heat Death!
Friends:
A friend to everyone is a friend to no one.
User ID: 454
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
I'm gathering that you're ultimately fine with full on Social and Natural Darwinism for deciding punishments and outcomes for risky behavior... but there's a certain amount of nuance when it comes to your own progeny.
Full on? Definitely not. I'd rather we make everyone smarter and saner instead, and I think that is a real option. I see several Fix Everything switches if I look around. Nuclear power, an end to NIMBYism, institutionalization of the mentally ill homeless (I have a US bias, some places don't have Fix Everything switches).
But time and money and effort are not in nigh-infinite abundance today. I prescribe policy that works the best for the world as it is, at least as I see it, not some kind of AGI-having post scarcity utopia. There are a lot of people who make everyone strictly worse off for reasons that can't be easily fixed or excused by circumstances completely out of their control. I think we can be harsher on them, for the sake of the super-majority. If you shoplift a dozen times and end up in and out of custody for more serious crimes, I want the book thrown at you. If you murder and rob over and over again, then you might age out of it, but prison is expensive (and has scope to be much cheaper even in the US) and sometimes the death penalty just makes sense (it should be cheaper too).
I am not advocating for some kind of free for all or maximal libertarianism/anarcho-capitalism, at least not today.
Well let me drill down on that a bit. If you believed that her doing sex work was more likely than not (i.e. 51%) to make it so that she'd be unable to marry a reliable, respectable, supportive husband and thus grievously impact her financial future, her odds of being a mother, her overall mental health, are you still going to stand on the 'autonomy' position, even if she's getting some malicious actor whispering in her ear (but, importantly NOT coercing her)? Yes, I would hope she'd listen to her loving father over the Casanova trying to pimp her out, but if she slips up this one
If it was actually that bad? Yup. But at least in reality, I don't think it's remotely as bad. And if she figures out it's a bad idea and wants to pivot away, it is far from impossible to salvage a good life.
Like I said, if OF caused giga-AIDS, we should ban it. But not even actual AIDS kills >51% of people, let alone merely things that could cause AIDS.
Wouldn't you be willing to take some serious measures to avert that?
Why wouldn't I? I hope it's clear that I'm grading according to perceived risk and damage. If my daughter was going to inject herself with a needle filled with literal HIV solution, I'd stop her with force. If it was a needle dropped by a junkie or if she was doing fent, I'd do so too. But come on, are you saying starting an OF is remotely as dangerous? If not, I think my decision to remain within legal bounds is both pragmatically valid and in accordance with my values.
I mean, depends a bit on what "they don't like" actually means. "This woman is riddled with STDs and has a history of violent outbursts" might justify trying to stop you. But yes, that's a fair distinction.
Given that I've just used HIV for my argument so far, sure, I think I'd understand if they did stop me. I certainly wouldn't cut contact or press charges.
Incredibly enjoying this discussion since its one of the few times I'm seeing major daylight between our respective positions, despite coming from almost identical premises, it seems.
I'm off to bed in a bit, but a pleasure nonetheless. I don't think your views are unreasonable, even if we do have our differences.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
You know, while COVID was a bad time in India, the sheer poverty of the country saved us from the ridiculously prolonged lockdowns. Sure, we had them for maybe 2 or 3 months in early 2020, and then another one in late 2020 or early 2021 for the delta wave (much worse than the first one). But it quickly became apparent that society and the government itself would collapse if the majority of people weren't allowed to work. Also, it turned out that the revenue from liquor taxes was rather load bearing for the budget, and awkward adjustments were made quite quickly. The average person stopped regularly masking by early 2021, though I still had to wear one (and wanted to) till the middle of the year.
It's unfortunate that I was deemed an essential worker and had to suffer through it all, including work in overloaded Covid ICUs. We literally ran out of oxygen. The crematoria really did melt from overuse. N95s? I got one every month and had to wash it well past the point of usefulness. Caught the damn bug 4 times at the very least, and that's only considering the times I bothered to get tested. I could have used a break.
Anyway, I think it quickly became clear by the middle of 2020, well past reasonable doubt, that blanket lockdowns made little sense, and that only the elderly and sick needed special attention. What a farce.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
If there's an online grooming gang involved (and is it even grooming when we're talking about a legal adult?), then I would call the cops and ask them to take care of it, presuming that the activity was illegal.
I think physical restraint is, usually, a drastic escalation and violation of autonomy. My friends and family can pull me out of the way of a truck, but I'd yell at them if they stopped me from going out on a date with someone they don't like.
If my daughter told me she was going to attempt suicide, or do fentanyl, then I think I would do quite a few things that are clearly illegal, and damn the consequences. Starting an OF or doing sex work is not ideal, but not nearly as bad.
I have done plenty of things that my parents didn't approve of at that age. Some of those things went well for me, others... the opposite. A part of becoming an adult is realizing that the typical parent (mine and hopefully yours) is actually quite wise and knows what's good for you, even if they aren't omniscient.
I have my own issues with using age as the (primary) standard for capacity. I know 15 year old I'd trust to run a business, and 35 year olds who shouldn't operate a lemonade stand. I am too tired to go into exhaustive detail regarding the specifics of my views, but you can imagine something like a citizenship/adulthood/competence exam that anyone is allowed to try at any age. Nothing overly onerous, but enough to eliminate the idiots. You can pass it at 16 and legally emancipate yourself, or you might not make it till you're dying of old age if you're legitimately stupid. Then perhaps more demanding and specific tests for things that are quite clearly bad for you. Think Yudkowsky's Shop That Sells Banned Products.
You want to get surgery done by someone who isn't a licensed professional? Sure, pass this test of literacy and demonstrate an understanding of the principles of the Scientific Method and why med school is a good idea (you don't have to agree, you just have to understand), sign a few waivers, wait a week, and you're good to go. That includes waiving liability or the ability to seek compensation from the State.
If you break your spine while driving drunk, or lose your dick while fucking a blender, then I don't see why society should have to foot the bill. Maybe drug addicts who are violent, criminally inclined and disruptive and entirely unwilling to accept help shouldn't be eligible for housing or most welfare. If they're doing coke on weekends and making a million dollars a year as a quant, why the hell should I care?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
It is both easier and harder to move abroad as a doctor. There's plenty of demand for those capable of making the cut, but also an enormous amount of red tape and restriction on the ability to practice. An American doctor can't (AFAIK) just walk in to India and pick up a scalpel, let alone the other way round.
Someone with a good job in design or marketing, or an engineer/programmer, might have a harder time leaving India but would then enjoy far more geographic and personal flexibility. God knows I wish I could work from home or remotely, but that's only really an option for senior psychiatrist with a flourishing private practice. Can't complain too much, I make decent money and have an enviable degree of job security in return, at least till AI comes knocking.
My brother is very much against the idea of marrying a straight woman, at least on false pretenses. And look, he's still young. At his age, I knew I wanted to get married and start a family one day, but it was a problem for the future. The future is, at least for me, just about next week. He has time, Indian culture and law might well liberalize further, and it has already liberalized greatly even within our lifespan.
He could get away with simply living with another man and calling them a friend, at least for many years. Eyebrows would raise eventually, but nosy neighbors or relatives aren't an insurmountable problem. Anything short of an official, legal marriage to another man is viable.
Marrying a transman? I haven't specifically asked, but I'd bet good money on him rejecting the idea. They're very rare in India, not that transwomen are common either. I don't know a single one, and haven't even heard of them through my extended network, at least while talking about India. A lesbian? Eh, maybe, if we can find one. Apparently there are networks for those seeking such arrangements. And you're correct that he wouldn't be starting regular orgies, the chick would be the front while he spends most of his time with his real male partner (and presumably she with hers). As long as she's available to drag along to family occasions or social events, it could well work.
Anyway good luck with everything
Thank you for that, as well as for your advice. I am cautiously optimistic that his story will have a happy ending, and I'll move heaven and earth to make it happen. I know he would for me.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
I don't particularly endorse the State subsidizing bad behavior, at least the kind that imposes significant negative externalities. At least not till the world becomes so ridiculously rich that even the US of A today looks like a ghetto, which I do think is a very real possibility.
At the same time, I am very leery of States attempting to ban or onerously restrict the activities of consenting, sane and intelligent people. I am okay with safeguards for those who do not meet that cut, children shouldn't be kicked out of home at the age of six and told to fend for themselves.
The problem with setting your metric as whatever produces a "better" society is that there is far from perfect consensus on what counts as better. There are idiots who looks at nuclear power and cheap energy with enormous material abundance and think nah, ban that shit. This is not a retreat into complete epistemic uncertainty or helplessness, most people do agree that a society that is richer, healthier and smarter is generally good. Yet I am concerned by the sheer number of people who disapprove of the idea of turning Mercury into a Dyson Swarm/Matrioshka Brain. It's free cheap real estate and a lot of negentropy for the taking. Or the idea that we should become biological immortal or genetically enhance our cognition and eliminate all disease.
The benefit of strongly valuing personal liberty is that it allows the free market for ideas to flourish. People and societies that make smart decisions win in the end, most of the time.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
See, neither of us disagree that there is scope for guard-rails or restrictions, we just disagree on where to put them. If we lived in a more enlightened and intelligent society, I would let my inner libertarian flag fly, and say that yes, society should allow every free sophont to own personal nuclear bombs or sell themselves into slavery.
Sadly, we live in a deeply imperfect world, with a lot of stupid people around who would not only screw themselves over (hey, it's their prerogative) but also impose substantial externalities. I don't mind second hand or indoor smoking being banned, but I do oppose a ban on cigarettes even if I don't use them. I am mostly okay with cigarettes being heavily taxed, which compensates for the externalities and has had meaningful and substantial reductions in popularity, at least in the UK.
The issue with the toddler analogy is that well, they're a toddler. I'm not sure even Von Neumann or Einstein were operating at the level of the average adult at 2 years old. Safeguards in place make sense. Adults/parents being able to override their autonomy is desirable.
But my 18 year old daughter? I would impose as much punishment as is legal, say threatening to cut her off from college funds or leave her life. But I wouldn't ask the government to make sex work illegal, that is going too far. At least some people, like Aella, do it while being far from stupid or poorly informed. Good for them, even if I don't particularly approve. I would sleep with Aella, I absolutely wouldn't marry her. But there are people willing to marry her (Bay Area autists for the most part), so it's not ruining her life. I don't want to ruin her life. I will sigh and look the other way.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
Thank you for the advice.
I genuinely don't think it's as hopeless as you think. Sure, my brother probably can't make it work with the current bi boyfriend, but that is far from his only option. It is unfortunate that he's still in love with him, and vice versa, but I've been in love with women I never intended to marry too.
I did specifically discuss emigration, look, I don't even live in India anymore, even though my opinion on the UK has soured considerably (I'm actively weighing my options once residency ends).
He is willing to make sacrifices: he is already closeted with regards to my dad and the wider public. He very badly wants our dad to accept him, which I think is quite likely if not certain. The wider public can take a hike, and even if they disapprove, the objective risks are minimal.
India is not the best place to be a gay man, but is also far from the worst. I'd say it's like America in the 70s or 80s, maybe early 90s.
If you want specific reasons for staying:
Our family owns a small hospital, currently in the red. We're trying to turn that around. My dad devoted a good chunk of his life to building and operating it. There's scope for expansion.
My brother never particularly wanted to be a doctor. Even I was not particularly devoted to the profession, though I was lucky to discover that psychiatry genuinely appealed to me. I wouldn't say he was forced into it, but he lacked focus and ended up opting in as the default outcome. He would rather be a businessman with a side hustle as a doctor than entirely devoted to medicine. I'm the opposite, the idea of running a business in India makes me feel sick. I am extremely relieved that he's consistently expressed interest in shouldering the burden.
Then there's our parents. They would accept both of us emigrating abroad permanently, but with pain. My dad still hopes that I'll come back after changing my mind. They're getting old. They're getting frail. They no longer appear as invincible as they seemed when we were children. We worry about them. Having a son close at hand reduces our concern immensely.
He's willing to go abroad, for a residency at least. And if he likes it, who knows, he might decide to stick around. I did so, but I am sorely disillusioned, and I hate my life and training, while enjoying the money and other kinds of freedom. It's a deeply personal decision, not everyone who would flourish abroad wants to go abroad. My dad could have made it big in the States if he really cared to try, but he had different priorities. Such is life.
It is also not trivial to make the move. The UK is no longer a viable option because of recent reintroduction of prioritization of local graduates. The US is famously demanding. Canada, Australia and New Zealand are his best bets.
I love my brother, but he's not very good at studying despite being smart. His ADHD is worse than mine in that regard, even if he's more functional and independent in other ways. I had an uphill struggle getting into residency in the UK, I had to study so hard I almost went blind, and definitely had a few mental breakdowns. I do intend to continue tutoring and coaching him, even if I have a lot on my plate as is. Least I can do for my little brother.
It is also genuinely not easy being a first gen immigrant. I miss my family, old friends, and my pets. He would too. It is not nearly as clearcut as the West being outright superior in all regards to life as a doctor in India, even if you're gay, and he can work around the limitations here. He is absolutely not the kind of person who has rose-tinted glasses on, he's thinking ahead and doesn't see it impossible to find happiness here. Neither do I, if I'm being honest.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
Look, I think that a society that only allows people to make good choices is tyrannical, even if it's benevolent tyranny. I am not maximally libertarian, but someone selling pictures of them riding a dildo does not rise to the level of harm where I will tolerate (if not endorse) governmental intervention.
I think you have every right to personally disapprove. I do and would disapprove too, if my daughter contemplated something like that, I'd be immensely disappointed, assuming that society and cultural mores around sex stayed much the same as it currently is today. But if it was entirely normalized? I wouldn't forbid her, even if my own upbringing made me queasy. In a similar vein, I don't think there's anything wrong with working as a janitor, but I don't want my kids to become janitors.
If we apply the standard that people who aren't maximally rational and numerate can't do certain risky things, then we would very quickly find ourselves in a situation where the average person can't drink, gamble or smoke or drive large SUVs. I don't drink (much), gamble (at all) or smoke (barring vapes, which are far less harmful) but I am also opposed to a blanket ban. If they're old enough to vote and not obviously retarded, they can do what they want with their own bodies. I don't see it as my business or that of the state.
If I could sell pictures of my body for monetary gain and without repercussion?
self_made_human_nudes_uncensored_gone_wild.jpg
If hot women lined up to fuck me for money? Brother, I'd do it for free.
I already sell my body in a very real sense, since my mind is attached to it and so are my hands. That is what working for a wage means. I don't see anything qualitatively or morally wrong about sex work in a vacuum, the problem is the lack of vacuum. The kind of woman who is willing to prostitute herself is highly likely to be immensely unsuitable for me. That's just basic priors IMO. But history has no end of examples of respected courtesans or temple priestesses who were gussied up prostitutes. And society was fine with it, at the time.
Besides, I do occasionally watch porn, and I'm not a hypocrite to the degree that I would try to ban pornstars while jerking off to them.
I hope it is clear that I am willing to tolerate, if not endorse, many things that I disagree with or disapprove of. I ask only for the same charity in return. If OF caused giga-AIDs and the imminent extinction of the human race, I'd look the other way. It's not that bad.
Likewise with sex. I honestly believe there's some subset of women who can be 'happy whores' and generally enjoy promiscuity without it dragging other aspects of their life down. A small subset.
Women tend to age out of it, in my experience. The majority of women with high body counts usually end up snagging a man at some point, and mostly seem content to be monogamous. Look at my first ex from med school, she was well known to be... promiscuous (I don't know if she ever cheated on me, but there were rumors). She slept around with a concerning number of men (by Indian standards) and had a kink for East Asian-looking dudes (Nepali, Assamese etc, India is diverse). Yet my Instagram feed was cursed by images of her recent engagement to another doctor. I chortled at how butt ugly he is, and how much weight she's gained, but hey, he's a surgical resident and seems wealthy enough. I'm most surprised by the fact that she didn't marry someone who looks like her type.
(Her mom was a gyno, and had a reputation of her own)
In general, the costs of early promiscuity in women are overrated. It's quite easy to hide or suppress body counts, unless you're on record as a prostitute or pornstar. And even then, there are men who are desperate enough to marry you, though they might be a little far from ideal.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
I am this close to nominating you for an AAQC.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
I can never particularly get worked up over OF. With the proliferation of AI image and video gen, there's already a race to the bottom and drastically reduced profits (and costs). There's also a massive skew towards the top few performers raking in most of the money, and the average creator makes a trivial sum.
Not that I'd care much either way, if a woman has an OF, I would consider that a red flag that significantly reduces or eliminates my desire for a longterm relationship, but I respect their right to do it anyway. God knows nobody is likely to pay much for pictures of my bussy, and I'm not sure how much of that is attractiveness or the sheer abundance of free options. I can say I have never, ever, in a quadrillion years been tempted to pay for the stuff, most of the time the free alternatives are fine or leaks are easily available.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
Most women? Yes. But as I've speculated down thread, my brother gets enough female attention that there are almost certainly going to be women who would still ask for marriage and hope for kids. Maybe most of them might be a tad optimistic, or less charitably, outright delusional, but there's a reason psychiatrists stay in gainful employment. (I am not nearly as handsome and live in a different country with no solid plans for return, but all else being the same, my parents still regularly have to field marriage proposals on my behalf.)
And that is restricting myself to heterosexual women, God knows that if he did express a willingness to have a lavender marriage, there would be plenty of market demand. I don't think that's a bad option, at least if every party is on board and fully informed.
Yes. It can and does happen.
Out of curiosity, I asked Claude, and here's a link to it's reply.
ChatGPT:
https://chatgpt.com/share/69c167d0-f6b0-800b-a861-551b7be7be49
TLDR: there's a lot of denial about homosexuality, and a wealthy handsome doctor from a good family is a catch so appealing that plenty of women will ignore the fact that he's gay (even if they might end up regretting that decision later). Claude is more confident than I am, but I think both of us are directionally correct.
Your intuitions aren't wrong, per se, but India is a big country, with many different kinds of Indians! For example, if my brother had been born to a few of my paternal uncles, he might not have ever come out until his immediate family had died of old age.
The more conservative parts of our family are not that conservative by Indian standards. Enough to make us worry for the sake of our parents, but not ourselves. He's not going to be shunned or attacked, but our parents might face pointed critique or thinly veiled criticism. My dad is more old-fashioned than my mom, and he might internalize it and agonize over if he raised us right or if this is somehow his fault. I stress that he's never said or done anything actually homophobic, and he would probably get around to it eventually. It would just hurt him a lot.
It helps that our extended family doesn't live with us, or next door for the most part. We aren't very close to our dad's side anyway, we'd lose little if we had to cut them off or be cut off. Unfortunately, can't say the same about how my dad would feel, such ostracism would hurt to the core. I don't think it's likely, but I think there's a non-negligible chance of it. His older siblings raised him after his dad died, and he has tried to return the favor ever since, well past what I would personally deem reasonable. Let's just say we would significantly more wealthy if he had been more selfish and hadn't put half my cousins through college and uni.
I was once in a friend group with a "non-binary" woman who compulsively engaged in such tactics to police people's behaviour, and it took a herculean effort for me to contain my disgust. I find myself so estranged from these people, it's almost as if I'm looking at a different species entirely.
Right, I did say that I'm perfectly happy to hang around with LGBT people, but I draw the line with the "queers" or "Enbies". Call me cynical, but the majority are just ornery and attention-seeking straight women in denial. This caused plenty of conflict with an ex of mine, but I don't care. If you are functionally indistinguishable from a straight person and only sleep with straight men, my charity wears thin (barring the terribly dyed hair and baggy clothes, which does not constitute a distinct sexuality).
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
He's a handsome man with a decent amount of money, and also about to become a doctor. I don't know how many women would still pursue him if he came out as gay, but I suspect the number is non-zero. Straight men do chase lesbians too, and even more gay men have a thing for trying to "convert" straight men. It's even a meme that there are bi/gay men pretending to be straight on Grindr to attract attention.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
Thank you. I'm glad to hear from someone who's lived through this themselves and come out intact.
I can't really compare cultural conditions in Malaysia to my part of India, but my brother is close to being maximally lucky in terms of what he can expect in these parts. Maybe he'd be even better off if our parents were left leaning academics, but then he'd be poorer too, so it's a wash.
The thing is, my brother was never particularly involved in the local gay community. He doesn't consider his sexuality core to his identity, he's not an activist. His close friends are mostly straight, and the women he hangs out with don't see him as a gay best friend (even if he can be catty on occasion, and so can I). I don't think he specifically wants to immerse himself in the LGBT community, he just wants to be accepted as a normal dude who just happens to prefer sleeping with and loving other men.
He passes for straight even on scrutiny from his closest family and most of his friends, albeit with some suspicion. I do think that he might benefit from moving somewhere more liberal, but there are very good arguments for staying. He was never as dead set on fleeing the country as I was. Ultimately, it's up to him and I'll help figure out how to make it work.
Ultimately though, there's an inherent tradeoff between staying in India and being close to one's same-sex partner. You can't have it all in that regard.
I wouldn't go that far, honestly. India isn't Uganda or Saudi Arabia. He could probably cohabit with another man and dodge questions indefinitely, unless he publicly declares that he's married to a man and starts making out in public. Even then, I think he could get away with not much greater risk to life and limb. My mom joked that if he ends up a gynecologist, then there'll be plenty of women seeking him out because he's gay. There's a kernel of truth there.
You can go to high end clubs and see clearly flamboyant gay or trans people, and it's not a problem. There are practicing doctors who are out as gay (or make zero effort to hide it) and they do fine.
I see no real reason to tell our extended family either, I think it's fine with him if just me and our parents know. If he was genuinely asexual, then the same questions would arise, and we know he's already very discreet. I don't think he wants the fuss of a public marriage, and everything else can probably be shoved under a suitably robust rug.
As an aside, you should not feel that bad about making gay jokes; by your description he doesn't seem like the type to define his identity around that too much and can likely take it on the chin. You've been supportive, and if he tells you it's fine I see no reason to disbelieve him. I make quite extreme and very slur-filled jokes in that caliber all the time with close company, and can relate to seriously not wanting someone I know to tiptoe around me for fear of hurting my feelings. It's honestly condescending to feel like you're being coddled or asking someone to self-censor and I don't want it, to the point that every time I get a sense that any of my friends are doing that I sometimes push them in the direction of making these jokes. Probably not a good time at the moment since he may be going through a breakup soon, but just thought I would add that.
Thank you. He really doesn't want me to walk on eggshells around him, or to treat him any differently. I don't intend to. If I say that something is "hella gay", then I am not claiming that homosexuality is inherently bad, anymore than when I say "Jesus" out of incredulity implies that I'm a Christian (quite the opposite). I never had any malice in it in the first place. If he did object - while I'm a free speech advocate, I am perfectly happy to adjust my vocabulary depending on context, fortunately that's not necessary.
I don't really resent your advice, though I strongly disagree with it. Besides, my brother wants a longterm monogamous partner, and wants biological kids to raise together (he even mentioned recent advances in producing viable ova from male sperm, which I've heard of, but will likely take half a decade before becoming available to the public). I would be very sad if he didn't have his own kids, and if he's willing to, then I don't particularly care if he's sleeping with men or women.
The idea that one needs to orient their entire life around a sexual preference is disordered - no matter what that preference is.
Do you extend this to straight men and women clearly organizing their lives around their sexual preferences, or is it only a problem when it's not "normal"? What do you think heterosexual dating, marriage and family formation is, if not?
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
1d ago
In the sense that unless you are caught with your name on multiple marriage registries, the government is very unlikely to care. Even if one of the wives gets disgruntled and lodges a complaint, I doubt it's likely to go to court. Note that this applies mostly to rural and backward parts of the country with a Muslim majority, though my parents (gynos) tell me they've occasionally seen men come in with multiple women, explain they're his wives, and ask for care. It is a very, very small minority, and I don't know any examples personally, not that I go around asking.
I wouldn't be quite that harsh on yourself. Some aspects of a person they're set on keeping to themselves might well be your business: say a friend or family member doing dangerous drugs, and you find out through an oblique route. It's a bit tenuous to connect that to sexuality as an analogy, but I hope you get my drift. You have every right to feel some level of dissatisfaction, and I wouldn't hold it against you if you did ask him outright. Just being gay, is as far as I'm concerned, totally fine. A marriage of convenience (potentially one-sided convenience) changes the calculus somewhat. I can't blame you if you intervened on behalf of his wife and kids, though I'm not sure there's even a reason to intervene, and what you really want is to have him just tell you the truth and explain why he kept it from your his entire life.
If his wife is okay, and the kids are happy, then it does make sense to not rock the boat. Then again, she might be deeply embarrassed and unwilling to speak out because she fears the social and personal consequences. She wouldn't be the first person to stick around in an unhappy/lukewarm marriage for pragmatic reasons. (I am absolutely not bold enough to claim this is the case, I don't know any of the people involved!)
On the other hand, simply politely telling him you found out and you're disappointed by the charade is not, as far as I can gauge, a bad thing to do. And I suspect that is all you consider doing.
i watched "It's a Wonderful Life" few days back. and it is a must watch. it is a fairly common recommendation for US/UK people, but not for us (in general).
I'm lucky that even during my worst bouts of depression, it never went from passive/intrusive thoughts to active suicidal ideation or planning. But if it had, you bet that I would have fought hard to remind myself that I would be sorely missed by my family and other loved ones. I hope nobody in the stories we've shared has reached that point.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2d ago
I don't know how I'd have reacted if I had found out through a third party and had to wait ages for my brother to come clean. Can't blame you for feeling some bitterness about it either; if I had to guess, I'd probably get impatient and seriously confront him, albeit with good intent. In a way, the fact that I have multiple (often turbulent) trysts with women has annoyed/exhausted my parents to the point that probably felt relieved with a son who didn't let women get to his head. I need to ask him to buy me a drink for running cover, even if it's accidental haha.
My brother genuinely is more emotionally resilient than I am. God knows that the dysthymia and depressive tendencies came to me from my mom, and he mostly lucked out. Still, I'll keep a close eye, and my mom is perceptive and will manage any concerns once I'm back to the UK!
his wife is the one who has the most difficult situation, from my POV. so for her sake, things remaining unknown to most is a reasonable solution. but it still is an emotional issue.
Hmm. That really is a tricky situation. For her sake, I hope your brother is simply bi, and suppressing his desire to have sex with men while in a relationship, in the same way most men suppress their desire to sleep with other women while married. I do not want to judge him for misleading someone by feigning interest in women while purely gay, but then again, I don't think I could get hard enough to penetrate a man in the first place if that was asked of me. Presumably, with two kids, the attraction is non-negligible. I can only hope his marriage is stable despite the difficulties, and at this point it's a non-trivial problem with no easy answers. You seem like a caring brother, so I do hope he at least acknowledges it at some point. I agree that it's not worth poking at too hard unless someone is clearly suffering.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2d ago
Just a note that my brother saw your reply, and he thinks we could not have gotten better advice. Thank you again.
Thank you. That is a very substantive and helpful reply, not that I would expect otherwise from you!
i think you need some time for this to emotionally process yourself. a possibility in the past has become a reality. take time. maybe many months (or years, i don't know or can predict).
I am slightly shocked and surprised, but only in the sense that I am saddened that he didn't feel ready to tell me earlier, and because of the personal difficulties he's faced and will face without the opportunity for me to support him. We've talked about this, a lot, albeit far from enough. I think he's rather relieved that the two members of his family he opened up to did nothing but shower him with love and support. Of course, we will talk about this further, I just think I've finally had a much clearer picture of what's going on.
I am optimistic that it won't take months or years for me to process this. I did somewhat suspect, after all, and I can't see any change in how I treat him. I even cracked the usual jokes today, we're not walking on eggshells. His sexuality is nothing to me when compared to his health, happiness and career.
I am treating him as my little brother, and absolutely do not intend to become his psychiatrist or therapist. I don't think he needs one very strongly, he's more stoic and pragmatic (and functional, in some ways) than I've ever been. The biggest complaint I can make about him these days is that he doesn't study hard enough, and to be fair I did the bare minimum in med school. I asked if he was depressed, and barring rather reasonable episodes of sadness for understandable reasons, I didn't get that impression that all. He's more worried about my mental health than his own, and so am I in all honesty.
If I ever see any cause for concern, I will press on him strongly to see a neutral third party, that's a promise. Even if he doesn't need any medication, talking things through can only help and it already has. We are a close-knit and loving family that rarely keeps secrets form each other, and I am immensely grateful for that.
Regarding the end of his relationship:
While I like his "best friend" as a best friend, he hasn't been the perfect boyfriend for my brother. I won't go into too much detail here, but there are reasons beyond him being bi that would make me strongly advise my brother against seeing this a lifelong affair. Once again, not a bad person, and I am fond of him too, but residency and distance have killed many a heterosexual relationship already.
Right now, the BF is having second thoughts about breaking up. So is my brother. My dad is charmingly clueless, and wants them to move into an apartment together so they can either work or study full time (the BF is far better at academics, and he's optimistic it'll rub off, I suspect other things will be rubbed off too). Maybe they can stretch things out a year or two, it's not necessarily imminent.
I have strongly ordered him to let me know if and when the breakup happens, no matter where I am. I intend to be there for him, and I will call or at least text far more regularly than I already do. He is justifiably annoyed that I have the same character traits that make me withdraw and reduce contact when I'm not doing so hot myself.
whatever be the state of gay partnership in India, i would think that expanding the circle of potential mates in otherwise gay-friendly countries should be a good idea for him. you can discuss him spending some time in any of those countries (even UK should be ok, i dunno) for a residency or fellowship, etc. Also, becoming sole parent by surrogacy is not allowed in India, so this point becomes even more important (since he isn't interested in having a hetero marriage partner to do so).
Good ideas. There is a lot of practical benefit to him staying in India, both for financial reasons and to keep an eye on our increasingly elderly parents, but if that comes at the cost of his happiness, I'm booking the visa and flight for him.
I swear I had known about the single parent thing at some point, but it had slipped my mind. I'll have to double check if it's an issue for a married gay couple. Of course, legal channels are not the only option in this country, nor does he have to stick to this country forever.
personally, i am in similar but precursor situation as you. i found about my bro is gay/bi through my very close friend who found out about my bro from his friend circle. so my bro has not come out to me, since he doesn't need to. he has two girls also, and for social sake (my mother), bro and his wife are keeping it under wraps. overall, a very complicated social and personal situation. i can just be an observer without untangling the problem
Oh, I can see why this hit close to home. I'm not sorry for you, because I don't see much to be sorry about! I do hope your brother is bi and not gay, not for moral reasons, but because that is a kind of compromise that is far easier to make, even in the West. Good luck to the both of you, and I hope one day he finds the strength to open up to you about it. I'm sure you love him dearly and will treat him just the same. This is the kind of shit that brothers are for.
in short, be active supporter (not passive). engage a neutral therapist for him, which need not leak info to you even (patient-doctor confidentiality, which your bro can trust). and ask/nudge him to pursue wider social net.
I will do all of this right away, except possibly the therapy -(unless I see a clearer indication). Thank you again, this is precisely the kind of advice I had hoped to receive after mustering up the courage to share this, even pseudonymously.
self_made_human
amaratvaṃ prāpnuhi, athavā yatamāno mṛtyum āpnuhi
2d ago
Illegal, even for Muslims who have their own specific legal system when it comes to marriage (so do Hindus). But... it's been known to happen, albeit not anywhere particularly civilized.
My Brother Came Out To Me Last Night
I should mention, for context, that I've been somewhat jealous of my younger brother for most of my childhood, adolescent and adult life. He was born with good looks in a way I was not quite born with, and then, in what I can only describe as an act of aggression, decided to go to medical school and become extremely jacked. I am fine. I do alright with the fairer sex. I have made my peace with this in the specific sense of someone who has not entirely made his peace with it but has successfully reduced it to an occasional background hum rather than an active grievance.
He is also, and this is relevant, the sort of person who has had men and women throwing themselves at him more or less continuously since approximately puberty, with the kind of effortless appeal that people like me analyze, in our more honest moments, with a mixture of admiration and despair. And yet, as long as I've known him as an adult, he's never been in a serious relationship. When I asked about this, which I did both seriously and as a recurring joke, he said he was aromantic and asexual and couldn't be bothered. His stated motivation for building an enviable physique was to "mog women," which is a sentence I found both deeply unhinged and strangely admirable. I told him this was fine because I could be interested in women on behalf of the both of us. He found this less funny than I did, and occasionally scolds me for letting my dick lead me into places neither of us would go with a gun.
(He had even shown me pictures of the girls in his batch, and the incoming ones. There was a startling paucity of hot women, especially in comparison to the batch that overlapped with mine. I'd know, I dated quite a few of them. I considered this a reasonable excuse too.)
All this serves to demonstrate that I believed him. Mostly. I'd put it at maybe 80:20 in favor of actually believing him, with the twenty percent being a vague unease I didn't particularly want to examine. He was categorical about it and the aromantic/asexual explanation was not, technically, impossible. I had, only recently, learned that he'd even kissed a girl once in high school, which was more than I'd achieved at that age, a fact I mention because it seemed like evidence at the time and I want to be honest about the quality of my evidence. I told him, several times and with complete sincerity, that if he were gay it would change nothing. He denied it each time. I let it drop, because pressing it felt more like satisfying my own curiosity than actually helping him.
He came out to me last night, under circumstances I won't describe except to say that they were upsetting and that my first instinct was to hug him, which I think was the right call. I told him I loved him and would continue to love him unconditionally, by which I meant at a level that extended to helping him with light body disposal if the need ever arose. He laughed. I think laughing was good. He cried, and I think he needed to let those tears out.
I had hoped for a little more time before telling the rest of the family, but our mother appeared, and he told her too. I could see he couldn't hold it in for another minute. She needed a moment, and then she was fine, because she is an extraordinary woman, and I have told her so myself, and I meant it. I would be doing well to find a partner who is even half the person she is.
Our father is a harder problem. He has a heart condition serious enough to have had him hospitalized for atrial fibrillation, which is the kind of detail that complicates an already complicated conversation. He's a good man and a better doctor than I can ever aspire to be, and he's not someone I'd describe as homophobic exactly, but he's also not someone for whom this information would be accepted with equanimity. I think he would come around, after experiencing some serious emotional pain and confusion. I'm less sure about the cardiac implications of the journey there, and neither my brother nor I have figured out what to do about it, beyond trying to get him to improve his health first.
Once my brother had actually told me, I was not particularly surprised to learn that his partner of several years was the person I'd known as his best friend since the start of med school. I was fond of him. I'd tutored them both through parts of medical curriculum. I'd thought of him as something like a younger brother, in the version of that concept that doesn't involve him sleeping with my actual younger brother. I would happily accept him as a brother-in-law, my brother could do much worse.
The problem is that his boyfriend is bisexual, wants to eventually settle down with a woman and have children, and has a shrewish and emotionally manipulative mother who has apparently made this preference known with some force, even if she doesn't know he's bisexual. They're both finishing their intern years, neither of them wants to do long distance, and my brother has said things are going to end soon. This is, I think, going to be genuinely painful for him, and I don't know what to do about it. Lesbians will tell you, if you give them the opportunity, that dating bisexual women has a similar actuarial quality to it - not universal, not inevitable, but a real enough pattern that people have been writing about it for as long as gay marriage has been legal in the West. My brother's boyfriend's stated plans match this pattern fairly well, and I'm sorry about that.
What my brother actually wants, as far as I can tell, is pretty unremarkable: a long-term monogamous relationship with another man. The problem is that this particular preference is not especially well-served by the available options. Indian gay men are - like gay men anywhere - by my brother's account and my own observations as a regular at a gay pub in Scotland (the people are friendly, the drinks are cheap, and I have a good essay/attempt at ethnography up about it), primarily not looking for that. Marriage out of genuine love rather than social convenience is unusual. This is not a value judgment about anyone's choices (which I consider none of my business), it's just a bad match between what he wants and what's available, and I find it sad in a way I'm not sure how to articulate. His preferences would have absolutely worked in his favor if he'd been straight, there would be no end of women queuing up to marry him, perhaps even three at a time.
He doesn't plan to come out publicly, which seems to me like a reasonable decision rather than a failure of nerve. India is not the country it was in 2013 on this issue. It's also not a country where "my son is gay" lands the same way in a rural extended family as it does in a Mumbai apartment, and the collateral damage to our parents from a wider family reaction would be real. My mother's side is probably fine, they're upper class cosmopolitan liberals. My father's is more rural and uneven. Even the people who would eventually come around might do damage on the way to coming around, and my brother has done the math on this and decided he'd rather not. I think that's reasonable: he has thick skin, but it's our parents who would suffer from the scandal. Keeping things on the down-low is simply the most pragmatic choice either way, for the foreseeable future. Yet I do not want him to have to live a lie.
One thing I keep noticing, now that I know: he passes as straight without any effort at all. He likes fast cars and action movies and video games. He is more fastidious and picky about clothing than I am, but well within the range of normality for heterosexual men. He was about as good as hiding his orientation as one can be, while refusing to screw dozens of hot women. He is as straight as one can be without actually being straight.
He has no patience for flamboyant men of any orientation, and his boyfriend is similarly nothing like that. This is relevant mostly because it's part of why I half-believed the aromantic explanation for as long as I did, which now strikes me as a somewhat embarrassing failure of imagination on my part.
He told me, among other things, about a gay doctor who had opened a hookup conversation by requesting golden showers with no other preamble. He found it funny that I immediately opened that essay I mentioned on my phone - a piece I've written about my experiences at the gay pub, which apparently contains my own account of politely declining the same request. We have more in common than I'd realized. Neither of us are looking for quickies with gay men, albeit for rather different reasons.
I told him he should have told me earlier. He said he thought I'd be fine with it. I said he was right about that, and that he should have told me earlier anyway. This didn't really go anywhere productive, but I think we both understood what we were trying to say. I am sad that it took him this long to find the confidence to express himself, but I absolutely do not hold it against him.
I've made gay jokes at his expense, in the past, not knowing. He says he never minded and wants me to act exactly the way I always have, and I've agreed to this, and I'm still a little sorry. He's told me not to be. I think both of these positions can coexist without one of them needing to win.
The thing that is keeping me up tonight, l is that I can't actually do much. I can love him and I do and I will. I can be the person he calls. I can be the person who acts the same as always. What I can't do is fix the relationship situation, or make my father's heart stronger, or speed up whatever social change would make this easier for him. I can't make the world different from what it is.
If anyone has practical advice rather than reassurance/validation, I'd be glad to have it. I'm not looking for confirmation that I'm a good person for loving my brother without conditions, which I do not consider an achievement. I want to know if there's something useful I can actually do.
Options discussed with him include emigration, continuing to pretend to be asexual, or even a lavender marriage with a beard of the lesbian type. He is too ethical to trick even an eager straight woman into marrying him for the sake of cover, and he wants to be close to his real partner, whoever that turns out to be. He is also less than keen on permanently moving abroad, at least for anything longer than a residency. He wants children, biologically his, and I want this for him too. I think he'd be a good dad, and that I'd be a good uncle.
(He's confident he's gay rather than bi. The one time he kissed a girl in high school was, in his words, awful, and he reports no meaningful response to straight pornography. If he were bi I'd probably have given him the pragmatic advice to sleep with men for a while and then settle down with a woman, which is the easier path through the particular society we grew up in. That option isn't on the table.)
PS: He is okay with me asking here.
Quite possibly, but I pride myself on being an internally coherent and consistent person, and I definitely can't empathize with such... hypocrisy? Incoherence? I don't know.
Sure, I can understand it in an intellectual manner, but it's like intentionally seeking out fentanyl without external pressure and then shooting your dealer for selling to you. Sure, it's a bad idea, but this hypothetical (and hopefully fictional) person is being a bit silly. The dealer, at least here, didn't force them to buy it. If you hate pornstars, not jerking off is an option, and if that doesn't work, we can give your SSRIs for hypersexuality.
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