zeke5123a
3mo ago
PoW is just entirely different concept. They aren’t expected to be there for years at a time. There is a reciprocity angle here (we will treat your PoWs nicely if you test ours nicely). Most PoW don’t have significant control over people in the same country nor are the PoWs expected to circumvent their captors in spreading drugs etc in the captor’s country. Also the deterrence angle isn’t really there either (indeed a belligerent might want opponents who are willing to surrender since it reduces the harm their troops are facing).
These situations just aren’t remotely similar.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
I think that is a bit more trivial to the broader narrative. No one is being wrongfully removed. They aren’t just snatching random people. There was very good reason to deport this person who received significantly more due process than I think is warranted.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Except you miss the fact that jail was not historically able to stop these criminal organizations from operating in ES. The criminals simply controlled parts of the jail and easily communicated with the outside.
These new jails break the ability to communicate with the outside AND serve as strong deterrence (ie don’t want to go to a bad jail don’t be a bad hombre).
Making jail nicer fails on deterrence, fails on incapacitation, and fails on just desert.
Nice jail is fine for things like drunk driving or white collar crime where going to jail at all is terrible for the perp. But for gangs? They need tough hardened jails.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
It isn’t clear what process is needed but this guy went through two hearings which found (1) he was an illegal subject to removal and (2) was a member of MS-13 (though the second wasn’t needed).
He went through way more process than what was needed to effectuate removal. The only dispute was where he was removed to.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Am I the only person who finds it maddening that in the year 2025 newspapers still don't bother to link to the easily-findable publications that they base their reporting on?
It drives me mad. I can only conclude that most newspapers don’t want people to easily be able to read the opinion so they can editorialize what it says. People having to Google the actual opinion requires probably enough effort to deter a non insignificant number of people. Choice architecture matters.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Dude was an illegal immigrant. No one objects. Necessary process was confirming dude was illegal. Once that happens deporting his ass is appropriate.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Why? These gang members made ES a living hell for the people. Why do we have such empathy for evil people but effectively zero empathy for good people who had to endure the wrongs brought about by evil people?
ES is a relatively poor country. They tried for decades applying “human rights” and all it got them was a country run by gangs. Now the average person can actually live a normal decent life. And the rate of mistake on gang members is incredibly low (thankfully for ES the gang members decided to cover themselves in specific tats making their appearance obvious).
I just don’t see the moral argument that ES ought to treat these gang members okay.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
I think there are two key differences. First the SCOTUS opinion says facilitate Garcia’s release from ES. The original ruling said facilitate and effectuate return to the US.
It is very interesting that people obsessed with language would leave off the phrase “return to the US.” If they were reading two statutes and one said “return to the US” and the other didn’t, they’d clearly conclude — all other things equal — that there was an important difference.
But it goes beyond that! Read the next part of the opinion. The SCOTUS says the judge needs to “clarify” the order as it might exceed her authority and she needs to have deference to Art II power.
Why would the order need to be clarified if it is hunky dory? SCOTUS split the baby. It is saying yes the admin improperly removed Garcia to ES but it is also telling the district judge to back off a bit that she is going too far.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
I think you are evil in that case. For decades ES was a dangerous place run by gangs. Bukele was able to change that so now the average person can live a normal life. People aren’t being murdered left and right. They aren’t being extorted.
It seems incontrovertible to me that life is better in ES for the average person due to Bukele’s policies. So it would seem the argument is either: (1) violating so called due process is so bad that we’d rather society be a complete disaster or (2) the very few (ie probably less than 0.1%) innocently caught in the net via the policies are worth more than having a functioning society. I think we already reject the Blackstone formula in practice and while I’m willing to tolerate some process to protect the innocent it isn’t infinite and particular facts may argue against.
Now Bukele over time may turn into a negative authoritarian and at that time if criticize him.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Yes I could worry about all sorts of things but that doesn’t make the worry rational. Worrying that an illegal properly removed but improperly given to a particular country is not close to improperly removing a citizen.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Except that isn’t what happened here. The guy is an illegal immigrant from ES.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
This assumes we think illegal in migrants have much in the way of rights or that they are being violated.
Illegal immigrants don’t have a right to be in the US and they don’t have a right to an onerous process to remove them from the US.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Again to date Trump hasn’t ignored court rulings (though he is getting close). Yes there is the plane case but the Trump admin complied with a literal reading of the written order.
This one is interesting but as I pointed out the district judge seems to ignore the breadth of what SCOTUS said so again the Trump admin is arguably acting technically legal.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
That would truly be a constitutional crisis where Art III starts basically making foreign policy decisions?
zeke5123a
3mo ago
I don’t think that’s correct. He was precluded from being deported to ES. I don’t think that is the same as saying he can’t be deported but I’m not an immigration lawyer.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
My source is the opinion. If you read the SCOTUS opinion closely they didn’t say the ruling required removal to the US; instead they said facilitate removal from ES and then treat the case as if he was deported to that specific country. They then said she needed to carefully draw the ruling to not be over road or transgress Art II. It screamed “write a more narrow order.”
The district judge just said yolo I was proven correct. That isn’t true.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
The district court is ignoring the SCOTUS ruling so I don’t see the problem.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Which probably explains the fear—I don’t have the due process concerns for people that are factually illegals.
We can’t as a country have a massive amount of process to remove people who willfully and easily crossed the border. I guess you can’t make it really painful to be an illegal but that will just make life more difficult for people who ought to be here.
In short, some process is due illegals but I don’t think it ought to be significant.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Lol. That’s funny. Not sure if you are serious though. I like the idea of offshoring jails.
zeke5123a
3mo ago
Frankly, it’d be great if we could send duly convicted violent federal inmates to El Salvador: cheaper, more pain for the inmate and therefore most just, and better deterrence.
With that said, I’ll stick with shipping a bunch of people out with limited due process. It can’t be that millions can come but it takes a hundreds of hours to deport one by one. You make a mockery of the law in that context.
Anwar Alaki’s innocent kid didn’t get 90 seconds to say shit. Instead he and his fellow cafe members were droned to death because he “should’ve picked a better father.” Yet Garcia who already had multiple court cases establishing that he was in fact removable is taking up orders of magnitude more air time. I wonder why that is?
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