site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 3, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

How will Republicans responds to Biden's student loan giveaway?

Even though the Supreme Court scuppered Biden's plan to forgive student loan debt without congressional approval, he is apparently doing it anyway. So far, it would appear that 4.75 million people have had loans forgiven for a total cost of $167 billion.

Here's a link to a recent Biden administration press release.

I will admit, the devil is in the details. I am not going to comment on the constitutional legality, the many ways to qualify for forgiveness, nor the amount given to high-income earners, which some have claimed is substantial.

But the total cost is staggering. It amounts to over $1000 for every American who pays income tax.

Clearly, this money has electoral implications. The base of people who have large student debts is presumed to be mostly Democratic voters. By giving this group a mean payment of $35,000 each, the Biden administration hopes to increase their enthusiasm to vote. Even the ones who do lean towards Trump might view Biden favorably after getting (almost) enough money to buy a new Tesla Model 3.

Buying votes goes back as far as democracy does. Famously, Julius Caesar was forced to conquer southern Spain after going broke buying votes to become Pontifex Maximus. In recent times, some have argued that farm subsidies amount to vote buying. But, while special interests have always played a large role in American politics, student debt forgiveness is possibly the closest thing to naked vote buying we've seen in our lifetimes.

So... how do the Republicans respond? Whose votes should they purchase with a fig leaf of social justice? I'd propose a group that honestly needs it and creates a lot of value for society: blue collar workers. People who work 30 hours a week or more and make less than $30/hour should get an "earned income credit" of $10,000 a year.

If we're going to just be giving money away, give it to the workers, not to excess elites.

I’m with Tomato. Assuming this is constitutional (apparently a big ask), it’s just as legitimate as tax cuts or farm subsidies or energy credits or every other education program. The minarchist pipe dream of a government without redistribution is not and never has been on the table.

It’s not ascribed to social justice, either. Sometimes that shows up, because it is fashionable, but messaging like the linked press release have nothing to say about the subject. No, it’s framed as relief for economic hardship.

Many of these loans were taken out with the expectation of securing a valuable job. If that didn’t materialize, who’s to blame?

  1. The lender, due to irresponsible bets
  2. The lender, due to bad luck
  3. The borrower, due to bad luck
  4. The borrower, due to being a dumb idiot who doesn’t know that history is a fake degree

If you believe 1 or 2, you have an excuse to support redistribution. Even if you subscribe to 3, there’s a possible justification; the government does have an interest in an educated populace. I think it’s the most compelling out of these, because teaching a generation that aspiring to a better job will actually prevent them from affording kids is burning the candle on both ends.

But it’s 4 that underpins the opposition. For those who believe that the beneficiaries are stupid, there’s barely any reason to soften the blow. And if one thinks they’re malicious, abusing the system to get an education they never intended to pay off…well. Might as well take one’s own slice, right?


That’s not to say I actually agree with the policy. It sucks and it only has the thinnest veneer of a justification outside of the class warfare. If nothing else, it’s contributing to the credential inflation which devalued degrees in the first place.

But throwing helicopter money at some other group? That’s the worst option. There’s no reason to do it unless you’re playing tit-for-tar against the least charitable version of your enemies. At that point, it’s all over but the crying.

The minarchist pipe dream of a government without redistribution is not and never has been on the table.

Aside from when the Republic was founded, you mean. The question of “redistribution” was barely a question until the 20th century and the unionization of massive segments of the working population.

Hm. Perhaps the Articles of Confederation avoided it. If so, it’s only because they assumed states would handle the process.

You’re defining the term too narrowly. Think “40 acres and a mule”—the government has always sent people out to develop land in its interest. Maybe the 40 acres don’t count, if they weren’t taken from other citizens, but the mule? The garrisons, the infrastructure, the subsidies? They blur the line between buying favor and provision of public goods.

When we broke free of Britain, we spent American lives to give others a more favorable regime. When we bought French territory, we used American tax dollars to procure new land for our expanding population. By the middle of the century, we’d decided to redistribute the Southern economy rather drastically.

Governments exist because they provide a service which is otherwise hard to coordinate. Within a state, that implies redistribution.