This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It's hilarious that Karlin explicitly defines the enemies he wishes to dunk on as social media UA flag profiles and NAFO shiba avatar types. It really must have gotten under his skin to constantly get dunked on the stream of failed triumphalist Z predictions he has made, starting from the "it takes three days for Russians to take Kiev" style stuff in February.
There's that too, certainly. But in fairness, I think NAFO dogs are disgusting on their own.
One of the strongest cases of Russian resentment is «Why can't I do what America can», the trivial rage of the bull who envies the Jupiter. But nowadays it's more like «Why can Estonians do and get praised for doing what I am shunned for». Karlin tried to make Russian imperialism into a funny, presentable memeplex, with Powerful #aesthetic and Westerners going «gotta hand it to them», a scaled-up Crimean annexation. What happened is... a monkey's paw version of it, with his people the butt of the joke. Whereas NAFOs are playing it straight: memes celebrating Russian slaughter, merry funding solicitation, cute doggos, socializing, «ehehe there's no such thing as the CIA, wink wink». And they are racist, at least many of them, in the most basic sense that they do hate Russians irrespective of this conflict, and are happy for their sentiment to be normalized. They're what Z-stanning couch-warriors wanted to be.
Well, at the heart of it, it's simple: NAFO doggos get traction among Westerners, because Westerners quite unironically and seriously support Ukraine and loathe what Russia is doing, and obviously the opposite of that does not get traction, expect among sadsack contrarians.
More to the point, while I personally think that NAFO is cringe, I can also see why it appeals to some - after all, one man's cringe is another man's based. I've seen butthurt pro-Russian types simply claim that the whole operation is an Ukrainian/CIA botnet, which is silly, I know a number of types who have their NAFO doggo avatars and post NAFO stuff.
At the heart of it, there seems to be a constituency for latching on to certain causes that basically are "official Western ideology, expect much more muscular and boisterous". This includes Zero Covid and NAFO-style pro-Ukrainianism but is not limited, there are also some local issues that get surprisingly fervent fan clubs with the same vibe. One might use the thought-terminating cliche "fifty Stalins" but that doesn't quite describe it, after all Zero Covidists, for example, aren't getting praise and acclaim for their views at the moment, but are dunked even in media as weirdoes and diehards who are just another side of the coin from COVID conspiracy theorists.
The constituency seems to consist of, basically, centrist, disaffected 30-60-year-olds who have a vague vibe that their life is empty and that they need some sort of a greater-than-themselves thing, but who are also too moderate to really get into the Great Big Cause of the far right (anti-immigration) or the Great Big Cause of the far left (climate), and who in general find "extremists" to be dumb, crazy and dangerous. Vaguely liberal in values but not necessarily of a liberal disposition, pro-EU and pro-West, believeres in cautious progress, civic nationalist, might vote for center-left or center-right parties in various years - technically, they should be very content with the society as such, but they aren't. Such people seem to be good soil for "centrist extremism", stuff that is actually very radical (Shut down society for years! Bomb Russia!) but doesn't feel like it because, after all, being against diseases and annexations are widespread ideals in themselves.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link