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Apparently Labor is going to treat Incel ideology similarly to political Islam in the UK (BBC, Guardian).
As a freedom of speech apologist, I don't think that this is a good development, but just the response to the latest moral panic and about as justified as the response to 'D&D satanism'.
What should be illegal is incitement to crimes. I am sure that this is already illegal in the UK. "Blow up Parliament for Allah", "Rape some bitches to protest against wokism", "Kill a cop to bring forth the dictatorship of the proletariat" are not protected speech, if anyone posts them on their facebook they would quickly be removed and the poster charged.
Of course, even here, technically enforcing this on more obscure pages is basically impossible without cracking down on the free internet as much as the CCP does (and possibly not even then). Punish what you can find and don't lose too much sleep over some .onion board which you can't police, or infiltrate them if it looks like they are planning concrete crimes in the physical world.
To make broader pieces of ideology illegal, such as "people should live according to Sharia law" or "Capitalism is just a development stage to be overcome" or "Women should have less/more power" would curtail freedom of speech too much for my taste.
I also don't think it will succeed on the object level much. Given that the punishments for simply reading the wrong ideology is hopefully going to be light (CSAM being the only content where merely intentionally viewing it should be a crime), that prohibition will do little to dissuade people from consuming Incel ideology. The main reason why an edgy teenager would not read something widely considered bad is not because the government forbids it, which is to admit 'this is so dangerous that we can't allow people to read it', but that it is generally considered lame in his circles. If Mrs. Cooper bans Incel ideology, that will make Incel ideology less lame, not more lame, because established politicians are invariably lame. (My vocabulary is probably half a century out of date, my point stands.)
They have no other option.
They have created a society in which people have less sex than ever, have fewer children than ever and can only dream of getting the housing their parents had at the same age. They have no idea how to fix it so the result is to find ways to make the people who point out the problems seem illegitimate.
There were large riots due to the problems immigration has caused. Nobody in government has a serious and realistic plan for fixing the massive issues so instead of acknowledging them they simply have to blame a handful of Russian accounts. It can't have anything to do with crime, lack of social cohesion, rampant housing shortages or any other issue that the politicians simply can't fix.
If someone is living with their parents at the same age that their parents owned a house the problem has to be their micropenis. They are loser incels and therefore not worth engaging with. There is no political option to create affordable housing as it would completely crash the financial system to bring down housing prices to 3x an average annual salary. Therefore, what is left is repression and arguments that are insults.
Incels are a real threat to the system. The system has failed to create a society in which people can find housing, start a family. People are angry and politicians have no solutions. Lots of young men with nothing to lose and no prospects are the greatest threat to any regime.
The birth rate makes the UK pension system completely unsustainable. Filling the gap with third world labour is going to cause major issues for which nobody has any answers. So if you ask how this is going to be solved your dick is small, you are ugly, your momma is fat and you are a Russian bot so you have no legitimacy.
The effect isn't primarily through direct government suppression. Maybe one or two people with nasty rhetoric will be punished, but it's about generating a news story "look at how evil incels are," not any real likelihood that they'll act. You'll probably have a government unit dedicated to convincing young, stupid men to say they'll commit outrageous violence, just for the sake of making sure that story percolates through media on a regular basis.
Its effect will primarily be to reenforce among women that men complaining about, well, anything are icky and low status (note that "dangerous" is not one of those adjectives). A guy complaining about his inability to pay for dates is really just an entitled incel, so he deserves to be excluded from society. And he certainly doesn't deserve to have his complaints treated as a systemic issue, because we live in a perfect utopian world where anything bad that happens is men's own fault.
Men will then self-censor and retreat from a losing battlefield, at best working until they become a good cog in the system or (more likely) turning in on themselves and self-soothing with video games and porn, until eventually hanging themselves.
Incels won't be a threat to the system, because men who are plausible leaders will never be actual incels, and no one will take the massive status hit that comes with taking up any incel-adjacent positions. Instead, incels will just end up being a drag on the system, supported by the dole and their parents' retirement funds. It's also a self-correcting problem: the more men that drop out, the easier it is for the remaining men. The negative feedback loop ensures the system is stable.
While I agree with much of the rest of your analysis, this part is wrong.
It is not, however, a direct threat to the system. No incel army is going to rise up to start executing the girls who rejected them or handmaid's tail-ing them.
Think about this from an incentives and game theoretic perspective. Your modal incel is conformist and meek. They generally act however the "median basic guy" is supposed to act (until they hit their incel-dom initiation or whatever). If that group of males is dropping out of the social system, then the only males you have remaining are either the Andrew Tate types or the totally progressive bought-in types. I've seen the latter referred to as "cuttlefish." The problem is that both of these groups of males are anti-social and net-negatives to women. The Andrew Tates for pretty obvious reasons, but the progressive "men" too because they contribute to more unstable family structures.
A stable society has a large amount of men - perhaps most - who live very stable and predictable lives. Nothing glamorous, not a lot of risk taking. But they are dependable and reliable. A rational society would valorize that kind of behavior. You see some efforts towards this with the Grill Pill set, but it used to be far more front and center. Think Jimmy Stewart movies. This also presents an uncomfortable reality - a lot of the "good men" of yesteryear would probably be lumped in with the incels of today.
The danger that's emerging now is that incel-dom is moving up the chain. I had a post recently on an observation I've started to make on objectively successful, impressive, and highly competent men choosing effective celibacy (even if they don't term it that themselves nor do it for a religious reason). Now you've got a situation in which women are seeking mates in the dating pool and finding only trash goblins who hack the relationship game for their short term benefit. These guys aren't Chad Playboys with amazing jet set lives who bed starlets and then move on - they're losery semi-sociopaths who have mastered the first 72 hours of dating and are utterly substanceless thereafter.
It's been said on this forum a thousand times, but the primary victims of third wave to present feminism are women.
Care to elaborate?
A cadre of men capable of mimicking the dominant ideology sure sounds stable and predictable. At least, I assume that’s what “cuttlefish” is supposed to imply. It sounds like someone is fishing for ways in which the successful thing is actually
cringeproblematic.More generally, I’m not seeing evidence that stability and reliability are out of fashion. We live in a post-Rhett Butler, post-Don Draper narrative.
A > 50% divorce rate. The majority of Black American children being born out of wedlock. All time highs of dissatisfaction with mating and courtship. Do you want me to go out and cite the sources?
Not if that dominant ideology is both a) counter to family formation and community support and b) actively hostile to most / all male interests.
It sounds like we have different rubrics for success.
Going by your other responses, I’ve misunderstood what you meant by “cuttlefish.” I suspect you’re conflating several very different groups on the basis that they all vote Democrat.
Did you know that the states with the lowest divorce rates tend to swing blue?
I feel like I might be being baited, but, if I recall correctly, you're a mod, so that seems less than likely.
Let me be specific so as to relieve your suspicions. The primary demographic I'm referring to are PMC Males who have pride flags next to their twitter handle, a COEXIST bumps sticker on their subaru, and have never been part of an organized sport in their lives. These are men who gain sexual access to women by hyper flattering their cultural and social biases. They often get friend zoned. They make awful husbands and say things like, "My wife's boyfriend drives a truck life that!"
Men have always lied in order to convince women to sleep with them. A lot of it is hamfisted bragging and exaggeration. Women have fantastic bullshit detectors and so, mostly, avoid those goofballs. The specific problem for the cuttelfish-dudes (aka White Dudes for Harris) are they they're exploiting all of the worst parts of third wave feminism to inject themselves as, wait for it, "good guys." And that's why I have a problem with them more so than the typical dude-at-a-bar talking about how he's "pretty good friends with an NFL player, actually. Can't say his name in public, tho." Convincing a woman you share her deeply held beliefs only as far as carnal knowledge lasts is a particularly cowardly and dirty tactic.
I've read your comments on here many times. They're almost always high quality. You and I disagree on things, but I have respect for your intellectual rigor and honesty. Do better here. It's not about the artificial boundaries of states, it's about demographics. The divorce rate follows a lot of other anti-social outcomes - it's higher among the less educated, the earlier pregnant, the socioeconomically lower class. That California, New York, and Illinois have a huge amount of Rich White People who stay married out of stubbornness and a fear of divorce attorney fees doesn't mean that "blue states" have some sort of amazing marriage magic contained within their borders.
Thanks. I swear I'm not baiting.
I tossed out that trite red/blue divorce fact to ask: if you're taking aim at woke, white techbros, why use those divorce stats? Which parts are supposed to reflect on PMC culture?
If "cuttlefish" were causing instability, unreliability, etc., I would expect the places where they're most represented and most influential to show more of those trends. But divorce trends are driven to other regions. They're worst where people are poorer, less educated, even just older, since we're talking about cumulative numbers.
That suggests cuttlefish aren't doing what you think they're doing. Hell, I don't think many exist, not in the form you describe. It's easy to find men who lie, especially for sex. It's harder to find ones who play that game poorly enough to get friendzoned, cucked, and divorced, possibly simultaneously. And it's really hard to point at such a group and claim they pose a credible threat to women's class interest.
I think you've excluded another category. Men neither exciting enough to be chads, psychopathic enough to be Tates, repulsive enough to be incels, nor passive enough to be soyboys. The good men of yesteryear still outnumber them all. Even though they're building wealth, getting married, having kids, they're not spicy enough to trend on social media or feature in a thinkpiece. A real silent majority.
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