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What are The Motte's thoughts on:
Women asking out men, or proposing is.. icky?
To me, it's finnnneeeee. I see no issues or implications to it. I've been explicitly asked out by girls thrice before, and I agreed for two of them. I didn't think of them as lesser "women" or feel emasculated by it, if anything, I thought of them more highly for doing that.
But talking/reading around, it seems to me a lot of people find the idea of a girl asking out a guy, or even more so a girl proposing a guy really icky. They can't explain what's icky about it, but I think it's something like the lines of the girl being a man and the man being a girl. I know their reaction is visceral, but I find it puzzling.
It seems to be a 50:50 split of men and women hating it with, 50% of the people hating it.
A man who doesn't pay for dates is a woman
Okay, read the comments on this insta reel: https://instagram.com/p/C9u0_gqxGRo/
Holy cow, women really hate the idea! Really really hate it.
I can see the defense if it were along the lines of, 'the initiator pays' and since the man is the initiator most of the time, the man pays de facto. Other than not being a fan of unclear messaging, (why describe the inference and not the model?), I don't think most of the pressed women actually mean that. They literally believe the man has to pay.
Once again... I don't see the big deal! Sometimes she can pay, sometimes I can pay. I probably won't bring this up in the future given some women are sooo vehemently against it, I can't make heads or tails of it.
Like I don't get it, if the man is actually a man, his manliness or whatever will be so overwhelming that something as simple as splitting the bill on a date wouldn't even make a dent to it.
Seems like a 90:10 split of f:m hating it with almost all of the haters being female.
I feel like I am peering into some kind of lower class bubble where displays of masculinity and femininity need to be that much more in your face because there isn't that much of it to begin with? IDK, I feel like these people are operating at a more animalistic level than me. And this stresses the fuck out of me because I am evidently in the minority and can't model other humans.
I'm not a progressive or liberal by any stretch, but I really don't see what the "conservatives" are on about here.
I haven't been single in over a decade. I remember the norm being to split the bill, I'd sometimes pick it up as the guy. If I picked it up though there was more of an expectation that something physical was happening later. I also tended to date professional working women. It was a point of pride for them that they did not need me to pay for their date.
The other thing I remember was going on "reverse dates" basically one of us went to the other's place first, did some fun activities, then we went out to dinner. I might have picked up those checks more often, but I can't say with any certainty.
In terms of who asks out who, generally it was just men because they had more interest. I don't see anything wrong with a woman asking someone out.
A woman doing a marriage proposal feels very wrong. But I suppose in some specific circumstances it could make sense. Typically men are the more reluctant ones to get married. For the sake of both involved its better if the reluctant party enthusiastically signals that they are over their reluctance and ready to get married. Maybe if a man asks a woman to marry him, and the woman says no, but they continue dating then the ball should be in her court to ask him to get married. Describing and thinking of that kind of scenario doesn't feel nearly as icky as a woman just proposing first.
For the record, I agree with you, but there is some irony in saying that when it comes to asking someone out for dates, the more interested party should do so, but when asking someone for marriage, the more reluctant party should instead.
Asking someone out potentially will benefit both parties and neither risks very much, so it isn't strange to me for either sex to do this. Marriage, however, is generally one-sided in terms of which party stands to gain and which stands to lose, so it is off-putting for women to be doing the proposing. I only really think this because of who is typically the breadwinner. If a young broke guy were with a wealthy woman, I'd also find it off-putting if the broke guy were pushing for marriage.
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