This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In 2016 ISIS attackers bombed the airport in Brussels killing over a dozen people. A seventeen year old girl was present but uninjured. This May she chose to be euthanized because of her psychological trauma. She was 23 and she had no physical injuries. The news of her death was just announced recently.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/10/10/2016-brussels-attacks-victim-granted-euthanasia-after-years-of-ptsd_5999805_4.html
This seems absolutely insane to me. I don't doubt she was suffering but she was only 23. A lot could have changed over the next 70 years. She wasn't terminally ill, she didn't have cancer, she wasn't paralyzed from the neck down. She was very sad and very scared and had attempted suicide twice. But I know that at least some people who have survived suicide attempts have gone on to lead happy lives.
I used to disapprove of euthanasia but wasn't strongly in favor of making it illegal, even though it was never a choice I would make myself or approve of making for a relative. But cases like this have made me strongly opposed to it. It seems like the medical establishment can't be trusted to restrict it to only the most extreme cases. The people saying that allowing euthanasia is a slippery slope have been proven right in my opinion.
I believe she made the wrong choice but I strongly object to removing that choice. We should have exit rights to life. If you can't choose to end it all I don't think you can truly be free. My fiance is a psychiatrist that works at a public hospital where she sees some of the most chronically afflicted, she has stories and I'm aware that there are many common ways of being that I would choose death over. I trust no one but myself to decide what those states are. This is not because I trust the medical establishment but because I do not trust it.
The thing is, depression is often a result of thinking too much. The more you think about reality, the more depressed you get, because reality is extremely depressing, we are a convolution of dust floating forever through an uncaring and unending universe of chaotic stupidity, hurting others and being hurt simply by existing. Or maybe it's a result of thinking more than usual, but not quite enough to be happy about your situation. Either way, it's generally not stupid people who get depressed, exceptions like me set aside, and so while I definitely think everyone should be allowed to choose how they live (or don't) their lives, I think promoting that idea is the absolute dumbest thing we could do about it. Attempts at suicide maybe don't need to be punished, but they should certainly not be state sanctioned - not for the person who attempted it, but for everyone else yearning for an end to the misery circus.
I agree with you (except for the parts where you imply that reality is unbearably dismal). It seems like a lot of people conceive of suicide as a rational decision that one makes when the expected value of future pain exceeds the expected value of future pleasure. If that were true, suicides wouldn't spike in response to a suicide being reported and made salient by the popular press (the Werther Effect).
Suicide certainly involves some degree of ennui or internal torment, in the trivial sense that no one would kill themselves if everything is absolutely awesome, but every normal life involves plenty of ennui and internal torment.
More common as a cause is people spending too much time contemplating suicide, thinking through the mechanics of it, and elaborating philosophical justifications for it. I think people talk themselves into it, and that doing so is a more proximate cause of suicide than the absolute degree of anguish they are experiencing. I think it's literally a memetic hazard.
And having the state procure the suicide validates that choice, makes it more salient, makes it part of the marketplace of respectable choices that individuals make.
its not necessarily about the state though, it should be allowed for a private business to offer, even suggest, euthanasia to people. if more people end up killing themselves than otherwise would, its not a problem because there was no coercion involved, and you can not determine for other people what is good for them, because pleasure and pain can not be measured.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link