This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Somewhere downthread, Kanye West was said to have written some of the best wordplay of the past few decades. Could anyone cite some examples? (ideally text rather than video links)
compared to who, yknow?
set the board, 2000 and newer.
k, wipe off every artist who doesn't rap. i like plenty of pop, Heat Waves is great. lyrically nothing.
off Drake's 2021 Certified Lover Boy the T-1 most viewed Genius track is Fair Trade. Drake's longest verse: https://i.imgur.com/elNr1KT.png
off Kanye's 2021 Donda the most viewed Genius track is Off the Grid. Kanye's longest verse: https://i.imgur.com/bWkIdP0.png
listen to both if you want the best context. reading lyrics alone can miss delivery and the point. Hurricane also off Donda has a couple examples:
"I'm that one at Yale" can be heard as "I'm the one that yell" connecting by subject with the subsequent line.
Later
Kanye gives ambiguity in performance, as it can be heard as "ask Him, 'What do you love?'" -- Donda isn't subtle about being a gospel album, but this line is.
but it's not representative to compare Kanye to Drake. it's plenty fair: drake is a worse lyricist, rapper, and producer (and not that i ever really care when it comes to celebrities, a worse person)
representative would be closer with Kanye and Kendrick Lamar.
off Kendrick's 2022 Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers the most viewed Genius track is N95. Kendrick's first verse: https://i.imgur.com/78q6xtA.png
Kanye's is the best of the three by lyricism, performance and production. my method for selection has influenced this, but i think it's better than selecting their most highly viewed tracks on Genius. for Kanye: Mercy, for Drake: God's Plan and for Kendrick: Humble. Kendrick is firmly the best here, but it seems the overall popularity of a song often negatively correlates with its lyrical complexity. see Donald Glover/Childish Gambino. unsurprising of the great polymath-artist of our time, you'd have trouble finding tracks by him that aren't brilliantly written. his most popular is This is America.
Kanye's not as good of a lyricist as Donald Glover, but that's no criticism. Kanye is a better musician, rapper, and producer, and production is where i'll stop.
few artists have a separate wikipedia article for their production discography. Jay-Z isn't the artist he is today (or married to Beyoncé) without Kanye's production on The Blueprint. Artists including John Legend, Common, Kid Cudi, Pusha T, and Travis Scott likewise owe significant success if not their careers to Kanye's work with each. these are careers, on genres? his 2007 Graduation and off it Flashing Lights is the major moment of synth use in hiphop and from it you can draw a straight line to the ubiquity of synth in modern pop. beyond Kanye, only The Neptunes--Pharrell Williams and Chad Hugo--have comparable production bona fides. (A little thing I find funny about Pharrell is Happy from Despicable Me isn't even his best song titled Happy. Also this no-right-to-be-a-bop with Trey Parker.)
FiveHourMarathon mentions this below. Kanye's not just the greatest discography of the genre (and MBDTF and Donda are two of the greatest records ever made). his influence can be seen across post-2000 hiphop, and from it all modern pop. in the last 100 years of music, the artists the same can be said of is an extremely short list.
MBDTF is one of my favorite albums of all time, so hearing you praise Donda in the same breath puts it on my list.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link