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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32882 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 10, 2022

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Huh? It was RococoBasilica and you claiming we need the term to talk about social roles, how is saying "not really" getting bent out of shape? If anything, isn't it people who try to get others fired for "misgendering" who are getting bent out of shape?

I was responding to a very specific question, which was why not use the generic term "social norms." My answer was that there are many types of social norms, and the term refers to a specific one. Not sure what that has to do with misgendering. I can believe that 1) gender norms exist; 2) therefore, we need a term to distinguish them from other classes of norms; 3) the term "gender" is reasonable term to use to refer to those norms, even if it is not the one I would have chosen; and 4) left discourse around misgendering is submoronic

Unfortunately re 4 I think you are in a minority on the Anglosphere left. I wish it was otherwise!

My answer was that there are many types of social norms, and the term refers to a specific one

And my answer to that is that doesn't seem to bother us when talking about any other type of social norm, so why should it bother us when talking about social norms imposed on men and women? How is that "getting bent out of shape"?

Not sure what that has to do with misgendering.

I think the term "gender", rather than serving a clarifying role, conflates a whole bunch of things. For example "gender" is also supposed to be some sort of internal feeling, and "misgendering" is some sort of transgression related to that internal feeling. Maybe you don't think that's how the term should be used, but it is.

  1. therefore, we need a term to distinguish them from other classes of norms;

Why? We don't really have so many words for those other classes, why do we need one here?

There are indeed terms for those other classes of norms; they just are not in general discourse because they don't relate to current political issues.

As for whether gender is clarifying, "gender" is not used to refer to a sort of internal feeling. The term for that is "gender identity" (just as there are terms like "ethnic identity" and "sexual identity" )

There are indeed terms for those other classes of norms; they just are not in general discourse because they don't relate to current political issues.

Since the term "gender" doesn't even exist in a lot of languages, I'm a bit skeptical of all these terms for all these other classes existing. Do you have an example in mind?

As for whether gender is clarifying, "gender" is not used to refer to a sort of internal feeling. The term for that is "gender identity" (just as there are terms like "ethnic identity" and "sexual identity" )

Are you sure you're not sane-washing? I mentioned this in another comment, the whole thing reminds me of "neoliberal". Every time I point out that it's vague and conflates a bunch of things, someone shows up to assure me it just means free trade, deregulation, and privatization, all the academic articles using the word in a lot more expansive ways be damned.

Since the term "gender" doesn't even exist in a lot of languages, I'm a bit skeptical of all these terms for all these other classes existing. Do you have an example in mind?

I don't know what you mean when you say that the term "gender" doesn't exist in a lot of languages.

Are you sure you're not sane-washing?

Here is the definition of "gender" from the Open Education Sociology Dictionary:"

(noun) The attitudes, behaviors, norms, and roles that a society or culture associates with an individual’s sex, thus the social differences between female and male; the meanings attached to being feminine or masculine.

Here is that dictionary's definition of "gender identity":

(noun) An individual’s self-perception of their gender.

So, as i said, "'gender' is not used to refer to a sort of internal feeling. The term for that is 'gender identity'"

I don't know what you mean when you say that the term "gender" doesn't exist in a lot of languages.

I don't know how else describe it. There is no equivalent word, and people often resort to simply taking "gender" from English.

So, as i said, "'gender' is not used to refer to a sort of internal feeling. The term for that is 'gender identity'"

How does that prove this is not sane-washing? Are you saying I won't be able to find academic papers using "gender" in a more expansive way?

I don't get why that matters. The societies which use those languages presumably have norms, etc, re each sex. Why does it matter what word is used to describe that phenomenon. There are many loan words from English in other languages. Eg: "genocide."

I have no idea whether there is some idiot in the humanities who has used the term incorrectly. I am saying what the standard definitions are. See also those from the Human Rights Campaign and Planned Parenthood and the WHO and the Mayo Clinic and Merriam-Webster

Looking at the Mayo Clinic page,

Sex assigned at birth and gender identity are two separate things. Sex assigned at birth is typically made based on external genital anatomy. But gender identity is the internal sense of being male, female, or a gender along the spectrum between male and female. People communicate their gender to others through gender expression. This may be done through mannerisms, clothing and hairstyles.

Is this the answer to the "What is a woman?" problem that people have settled on? "A woman is someone who feels like a female." Merriam-Webster goes the same way. But what does it even mean to "feel like a female", if female is just the physical organs and woman is the gender identity? At first glance, this seems like an ugly desperate kludge; it pushed back the point where the incoherence can't be hidden, at the cost of essentially giving up on non-dysphoric trans.

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