site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I've tried coming at this topic from a few different angles over the years and I frequently find that one of the biggest hinderences to debates around gender is that there are many different and at times contradictory ways to be on both sides of the various questions regarding gender in modern society. I've decided to lay out what I think are the fundamental questions that people disagree with. In isolation I think I can reason any option for any of the below questions but certain combinations of answers seem like they can't coexist

Questions in dispute in the debates around gender:

\1. To what degree if any is gender related to sex?

          A) gender and sex are the same thing

          B) gender and sex are tightly mapped but some people have a gender misaligned with their sex

          C) gender and sex are related but not tightly mapped

          D) gender is totally unrelated to sex

\2. How many Genders are there?

          A) two

          B) several

          C) Many

          D) A near infinite number

\3. Who or what determines what a person's gender is:

          A) society

          B) biology

          C) self

\4. Sexual orientation(gay/straight/bisexual) is primarily related to the [Blank] of the object of attraction:

          A) gender

          B) Sex

          C) Some combination of gender and sex

          D) none of the above

\5. Are the differences between how men and women behave more socially or biologically derived:

          A) Much more due to Social Pressures

          B) a near even mix

          C) Much more due to Biological differences

\6. How much can an individual's gender change over time?

          A) Gender can never change

          B) Gender is constant but someone's understanding of their gender can change

          C) Gender can change in response to dramatic life events

          D) Gender can be fluid and change frequently

\7. Is the relationship between men and women or the relationship between males and females the primary focus of feminism?

          A) men and women

          B) males and females

          C) both

          D) there is no difference

\8. How is gender felt from a first person perspective?

          A) an innate feeling separate from behavior and dress

          B) an inclination for certain behaviors and dress

          C) just the consequence of sex

Questions I'm excluding because while definitely relevant to policy discussions I don't believe are really fundamental to disagreements:

  • Are puberty blockers safe?

  • Do males and females differ in physical capability?

  • How well can any given transgendered person pass?

  • How much should we expect people to game gender affirming policies and what if anything should be done to prevent this

Examples playing with edge cases:

  • I - A Female dresses and behaves in a manner perfectly median in every metric for a woman in the society they live in. Is it legitimate for this person to identify as a man without changing any behavior?

  • II - A Female dresses and behaves in a manner perfectly median in every metric for a man in the society they live in. Is it legitimate for this person to identify as a woman without changing any behavior?

  • III - A Female, who dresses and behaves in a manner perfectly median in every metric for a woman in the society they live in, Meets A Female who dresses and behaves in a manner perfectly median in every metric for a man in the society they live in. They have sex. Was this a heterosexual coupling or a homosexual coupling? Does this answer change depending on what each partner identifies as? Does it matter if they never exchanged gender identity?

  • IV - A Male teenager is unsure about their gender identity, they are not classically masculine and are bullied for this. No one ever affirms their masculinity. They attempt a social transition and find those around them very supportive and constantly affirm their femininity which the teenager enjoys although doesn't particularly enjoy many of the feminine trappings. What criteria should the teenager use to gauge whether they are a girl, boy or other gender?

  • V - A Male who identifies as a man raised in a very standard American cultural context is abruptly transported to a different culture with exactly opposite norms for men and women but an otherwise similar culture. would you expect the person to identify as a man or woman?

  • VI - In A world where there are no visible secondary sex characteristics including strength differentials and a society where there is no social distinction between the sexes would this society invent gender? If so would gender primarily fall along sex lines?

Please feel free to compare and contrast how different sets of answers to these questions have different implications for these examples or new scenarios you find interesting or propose new relevant questions. I'm most interested in kind of mapping out how different 'factions' in the general debate might answer these questions.

edit: the formatting was right in the preview >_>

  1. Gender doesn't exist, there is only sex.

  2. There are none, there are two sexes.

  3. Nothing as it's a made up concept. Biology determines sex....

I think there's a whole nexus of answers along this view not in the options.

I think every question had an option that fulfills your view on each question, I do think that is going to be the most popular checking of boxes at the moment but that doesn't necessarily make it right. What further questions do you think you'd need to define the boarders of your belief than those listed?

I had a similar reaction to the above poster. I suspect you expected the following answer to cover this view:

A) gender and sex are the same thing

The issue I had with this is that it is ignoring reality. I would prefer gender to mean the same thing as sex but some people are clearly using the word differently. Given I'm not a prescriptivist a definition that doesn't match the word's use is not a good definition.

At the same time I think the concept these people are trying to convey is mostly incoherent, poorly defined, and the general concept is pointing at something that doesn't exist. This means the rest of the answers don't work either. It's like asking if Blargle is related to sex - the only right answer is to say the whole question makes no sense.

some people are clearly using the word differently

True, but they aren't using it coherently. People who use gender as different than sex vacillate between "quixotic mental state" and "fashion" and possibly a few other definitions, but they cannot and will not ever pin it down.