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Not the thrust of the comment I know, but I'd be curious if you really think this is at the root of your reaction. I mean, would you react in the exact same way if your kid was in some other way rendered unable to have kids themselves, like they were gay or got a vasectomy once they were an adult?
Also;
I think we're tipping in hysteria pretty clearly here.
I would be pretty upset if my kids were childfree. I wouldn't try to coerce them away from that decision, but I would feel like I had failed on some level, or that society had failed them. Family formation is a pretty core value for me. Is that wrong?
I don't think it's morally wrong, but I think it's certainly irrational to think that. It's their free choice, and doesn't represent a moral failing (on your part or theirs) any more than if you had a family business and none of the children wanted to take it over as they got older.
To be honest, I have a hard time understanding how anyone can want children, but that's just something I have to accept as "different people are wired differently". IMO children are a burden, not a blessing, and the prevalent veneration of parenthood in society strikes me roughly similar to if people considered it super important to have a guy come around to punch you in the stomach once or twice every day.
Well unfortunately I don't have a family business to pass on to them, but if I did I would also be pretty upset if they didn't want to take it over as they got older. And I wish my parents had a family business to pass to me - ideally one that they would be mad if I didn't take over lol
Well they're definitely a burden, but can't they be both? I tend to think most valuable things are obligations.
Fair enough. Clearly wiring has a lot to do with it. I'm probably wired to have a strong desire to have children.
But I also have good feeling about family that aren't just based on wiring. My fondest memories are oriented around family. I have incredibly positive memories that are focused on older and younger family. So I have in my brain a positive association with being the older family member getting to introduce the younger to the world and play with them. And also a desire to fill that positive roll that older family members filled for me. There are burdens involved but my general feeling around family is very warm. Those were always fulfilling relationships for me.
I think most of the good things in life are warm, fulfilling burdens. What do you think is valuable to do that is not a burden?
I think you make an interesting point about things having a dual nature, but I can't think of anything where I'd characterize it as a burden. For example, marriage entails certain obligations on both parties: I have to take care of my wife, I can't go chasing other women, things like that. But none of those things is a burden to me. At most, when we argue I am frustrated in the moment and put it aside for love. And of course there are lots and lots of upsides to marriage. We take care of each other in times of weakness, having a companion is really good, having sex is fun, all that.
Conversely, I find the difficult parts of dealing with children to be far worse in magnitude. Like, just the sound of hearing a child throwing a temper tantrum is like fingernails on chalkboard to me and far worse than anything I have to cope with in marriage. And you have to put up with that a lot as a parent, because children take years and years to learn to properly cope with minor situations. You also have to deal with all sorts of things like having to literally wipe your child's ass, etc etc. And all of that without really having the copious upsides that marriage has. Kids can be fun but it takes years of slogging through shitty un-fun times to get there, and while they may be there for you when you're older that isn't really something you can (or should) bank on happening.
To me, the far superior path to be around kids is to be the cool uncle. I have two nephews (3 and 6), I try to make sure I'm in their lives, and I do enjoy seeing them. But when my nephew starts throwing a temper tantrum because he's 3 and that's how he rolls at that age, I don't have to deal with it - I can just grit my teeth and power through with ignoring it. Or if one of my nephews ever asks me something awkward like "where do babies come from", I can dodge lol. I love being an uncle, but I would definitely not want to have children of my own.
I think that's mostly a semantic difference in defining burden. I was trying to interpret burden in a more positive way, essentially the same as obligation, which is why I introduced that word.
If by burden you just mean a bad obligation, then by definition that is bad. I was thinking more like a backpack full of supplies on a hike - a heavy load. Something you have to expend energy to carry, but probably for a good reason not a bad one. Doing hard things for rewarding reasons is the best thing in life.
But the rest of what you said shows that it REALLY is a wiring difference between us. So there isn't really any interesting convo to have with me arguing that kids are a good investment. Your feelings about kids truly are fundamentally different from me on a base level.
Even when kids are throwing tantrums it doesn't bother me that much. I enjoy working with kids even when they are being very difficult. If it fundamentally makes you that uncomfortable, you're right, kids would be a huge net negative.
What about the family business concept? Businesses don't throw tantrums but you imply you'd resent having that thrust on you as well.
I actually did turn down the family business, though it wasn't something my parents ever pressed upon me. I grew up on a farm, and I have no doubt that my parents would've loved it if I had decided I wanted to be a farmer and took over the business from them. But my interests lay elsewhere, as did my other siblings' interests. Thankfully, my parents never made it a big thing, they just understood farming wasn't for me and that's that. If they had really pressed the point, I believe you're correct that I would've resented it.
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Nah I think building a family yourself has always been one of the most reliable ways to cultivate a true, sustained happiness. I guess I wouldn't know from personal experience, but it seems like pretty much the only way not to end up completely alone by age 60.
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I find myself having a mild preference against them being gay for what seems to be this reason, but homosexuality is less of an obstacle for having biokids these days. Similarly, I'd be rather annoyed if they both went childfree, but in that situation I can consider context or make the pitch for why kids are worthwhile and then respect the decision of reasoned adults.
The downthread topic that sparked this was a proposed bill to take kids away from parents who expressed resistance or skepticism. Take that threat entirely off the table, and ensure that I get to make my own determination on how sincere/serious the gender-nonconformity is while my kids are minors, and almost all of the heated goes away.
What bill? I hope you're not referring to SB107 because that isn't what that did.
Here's the link.
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In Canada it is explicitly illegal to question your child regarding anything trans. If the local school commissar gets their claws in them, there is no recourse.
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