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Notes -
An update, largely for the sake of visibility, about my post below on January 6th defendants.
I received a number of very helpful responses pointing out some things I missed. I was wrong when I said @anti_dan 's claim about J6 defendants "held without bail for wandering in" was fictitious. At least three different people reasonably fit this qualification: Timothy Louis Hale-Cusanelli, Karl Dresch, Michael Curzio, and possibly others. All three had their bail denied, meaning they were going to remain behind bars no matter what, and no amount of money would get them released ahead of trial. Dresch and Curzio ended up getting released about 6 months later after pleading guilty to misdemeanors. Hale was convicted at trial and was sentenced to 48 months of prison.
The reasons why their pretrial release was unconditionally denied are not that surprising, especially in light of how unforgiving US legal standards are in this area. Hale was frantically trying to destroy evidence by deleting his accounts and disposing of clothing & javelin flag pole. His coworkers at the naval weapons base he had a security clearance for thought he was crazy because he'd regularly show up to work with a Hitler mustache and make holocaust jokes. Curzio spent 8 years in prison for attempted 1st degree murder conviction, and within two years of his release he perhaps demonstrated some poor judgment by traveling from Florida to be on the frontlines of the J6 riot. Dresch is someone whose case I wrote about before within the discussion of pretrial detention. He had bad criminal history (multiple law enforcement obstruction charges, and a number of felonies from when he led cops on a high-speed chase reaching speeds of 145mph) and despite his felony convictions, he was caught with multiple guns after J6.
So going back to @anti_dan 's original claim:
In case you don't know, Debs was a prominent and unusually eloquent socialist (Freddie DeBoer is a big big fan) who was sentenced to ten years for sedition for protesting America's participation in WW1. If you've ever heard the phrase "can't yell fire in a crowded theater", it's because that was used by Oliver Wendell Holmes to justify the imprisonment of another socialist WW1 protestor in Schenck v. United States, and so Debs' SCOTUS appeal was rejected for the same reasons. First Amendment jurisprudence was pathetic back then.
I don't know if anti_dan still holds their belief on comparing some J6 defendants to Debs, but now that we have some identifiable cases of people who were held without bail for wandering in, perhaps this can prompt a more fruitful discussion on the legitimacy of this comparison. Some questions for everyone: Are you surprised by the reasons why these people were denied pretrial release? Is denial of their release indicative of politically-motivated retribution?
Here's the DoJ press release on Hale-Cusanelli's conviction:
Four years prison, plus three years supervised release, which could convert to more prison if release conditions are violated.
I'm kind of ambivalent on the prison term. It seems like a lot given none of the charges were for violence. I also can't find exactly what constituted his obstruction of justice enhancement, everything I can find just said it was for statements made under oath. I don't know how much of the sentence can be attributed to the obstruction of justice.
However, I also think rioting, occupying, etc. are corrosive to government. We can't let mobs effectively veto things that they disagree with. That will lead to mob vetoes on every controversial issue. Punishment needs to be high enough to effectively deter that behavior.
But I still see that we're not evenly applying this principle. Left-wing mobs invade Congress and hound legislators and the worst that seems to happen is they get removed. Months on end of assaults on the federal courthouse in Portland weren't taken this seriously.
Hm, the AP reported in May of 2021 that "More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more." So it sounds like at least some were taken seriously. The extent to which that is "even[] application of this principle" is unknowable at this point, given the data presented thus far.
I doubt any of those ten were non-destructive. The two examples given were a guy who orchestrated and participated in a looting riot, and an arsonist. If they had more sympathetic examples I think they would've printed them.
The article also states:
Did any Jan 6 defendant alleged to have attacked officers get a deferred resolution agreement?
Remember also that when Federal agents were arresting rioters in Portland the media was comparing them to secret police for using unmarked vans, and the Oregon Attorney General filed a lawsuit to stop federal agents from operating this way (she withdrew the case a few months later).
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