site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

20
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Leftist inclined people want to create racial equality of outcomes, and they therefore boost whichever kinds of rationalizations they can come up with for the achievability and justification of such equality.

And they've had the reins and got to be the null hypothesis for decades. All of their interventions failed. We can play the snipe down studies game all day but in the end one story is backed up by observed reality and the other is backed up by blind dogma.

But I honestly don't even care if this ridiculous debate is settled, all I want is for the blank slatists to actually have to justify their interventions and pay some cost when the inevitably fail. That all the costs of their failures are dumped on their outgroup is unacceptable.

And they've had the reigns and got to be the null hypothesis for decades. All of their interventions failed. We can play the snipe down studies game all day but in the end one story is backed up by observed reality and the other is backed up by blind dogma.

pretty much:

https://i1.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/ccf_20170201_reeves_3.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

The black-white achievement gap has proven impervious to all efforts to fix it

same for the gender gap

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/satnew.png

But individual absolute ability may have increased , but group differences persist. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that enough hasn't been tried. Policy makers have invested considerable money and effort at narrowing such gaps, with piss-poor results to show for it.

Regarding the gender gap in math ability, has any country tried to just make girls take twice as many math classes as boys do for a generation to see if that would reverse it?

Don't most girls not participate in such programs? You can only really expect to have an effect on the ones who participate, so if most don't participate, you are closer to not having the program at all than you are to having it for all the girls.

Yes, but that probably says something about female interest in STEM, which is probably somewhat correlated with aptitude. You could of course argue that this, too, is caused by an all-pervasive patriarchy, but given that the presence of such programs in a society has a negative correlation with female interest in STEM (i.e. the so-called "gender equality paradox"), I find that harder and harder to believe.

AFAIK just about all sex difference correlate with gender equality, including obviously-societal ones such as gender differences in names:

https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1432940616653152259

(And of course it's been shown to apply to e.g. gender stereotypes too, though that could very well be due to stereotype accuracy.)

I don't know why they correlate like this, but I feel like this gives you something equivalent to the phenotypic null hypothesis for the gender equality paradox: if the paradox applies to some variable X, and X is causally upstream of some variable Y, then a priori you'd expect the paradox in X to create a paradox in Y.

There are more people with an interest in, and a knack for, STEM to be found within the male than within the female population. Given that environmental interventions have rather spectactularly failed to reverse course in this regard, Occam's razor would suggest that biology plays a factor here.

The thing is, as kids, boys will look at what men do and mimic that, whereas girls will look at what women do and mimic that. I don't know whether it is the sex difference in programming etc. that is biological, or if it is the sex difference in mimicry that is biological. I wouldn't expect it to be both, because what would that lead to if you took all the world's female programmers and male elementary school teachers and had them create a society where they raised a generation of ordinary children? Would the boys in this society do programming (and thus be mimicking women), or mimic men (and thus do teaching)?

Since I don't know the answer to this question, I can't tell if the sex difference in programming is innate or not.

"Just about all sex difference correlate with gender equality"

I don't think that's close to right -- it's much too strong, but I admit I haven't seen a lot of data. What I have seen is consistent differences across multiple cultures:

Men and things, women and people: a meta-analysis of sex differences in interests

Why can't a man be more like a woman? Sex differences in Big Five personality traits across 55 cultures.

The Distance Between Mars and Venus: Measuring Global Sex Differences in Personality

Note that the differences tend to be actually larger than many of these suggest at first glance, as there tend to multiple, at-least-partially-independent, so if you take multiple traits at once, the means move further apart.

Scott also has a great discussion on it in Contra Grant on Exaggerated Differences

I don't think that's close to right -- it's much too strong, but I admit I haven't seen a lot of data.

Idk, I might be wrong, it's just the impression I've gotten from scrolling through twitter and seeing lots of random variables being linked to gender equality. Sex differences in waist-to-hip ratio, in values, strength of gender stereotypes (yes really, more gender-equal countries have stronger gender stereotypes), stuff like that. Maybe there are other variables where this pattern doesn't hold, but I would want to see the oddities explained before I grant this type of argument.

What I have seen is consistent differences across multiple cultures:

Men and things, women and people: a meta-analysis of sex differences in interests

I would like to see more measurement invariance studies done of vocational interests. I downloaded a dataset of vocational interests from the Eugene-Springfield Community Sample, and the MI looked kind of problematic there. But I didn't really like ORVIS, and I didn't investigate the MI very thoroughly, so I'm not sure.

If sex differences in interests are not MI, then that raises questions about the reasonableness of summarizing them using variables that are supposed to be valid within the sexes too. In particular it may be indicative that the self-socialization hypothesis is true, because the self-socialization hypothesis proposes a different mechanism for between-sex variation in interests compared to within-sex variation in interests.

I tried to search for other MI studies, and I found some that were kind of opaque. I need to spend more time on this at some point.

Why can't a man be more like a woman? Sex differences in Big Five personality traits across 55 cultures.

Personality potentially makes a good example for the phenotypic null hypothesis as applied to sex differences.

There's an absolutely humongous sex difference in strength and general physical formidability. Thus, if there's even a slight within-sex effect of physical formidability on anxiety - such as feeling anxious and fearful about being around big dangerous men - then this effect would generate a substantial sex difference in anxiety. Is that a biological sex difference in anxiety? Yes, in a sense. But is it in contradiction with blank slatist worldviews? No, not really.

This is a testable question. Currently, typical personality tests ask about anxiety in the abstract, e.g. with questions such as "I worry about things". (See for instance N1 in IPIP-NEO.) However there is no reason you cannot ask about more concrete things, such as "I am afraid of drunks in public", "I get anxious when having to talk on the telephone", etc.. recently asked a bunch of people what things they were anxious about, and used this information to construct a set of 60 items asking about concrete types of anxiety. I then collected data on these items. Unfortunately, since the data was not collected to test a sex difference hypothesis, it's quite noisy and hard to be sure about the sex differences, but e.g. the drunks question was the one with the second-largest sex difference, while the telephone telephone item was an item with a sex difference on the smaller side.

I don't plan to do a proper test of this with anxiety specifically, but I do have plans to do a proper test of it with personality more generally. I have been working on a set of personality items that are far more narrow than what is usually used in personality tests, and I plan to collect a ton of data on those items. They may end up overturning the standard HBD view of sex differences in personality by revealing rich sets of phenotypic null hypothesis and cultural associations.

The Distance Between Mars and Venus: Measuring Global Sex Differences in Personality

Note that the differences tend to be actually larger than many of these suggest at first glance, as there tend to multiple, at-least-partially-independent, so if you take multiple traits at once, the means move further apart.

I don't think the multivariate sex difference thing is nearly as important as people make it out to be, because it relies on an extremely careful alignment of the axes, and that would generally not show up in practice.